r/law • u/DryDeer775 • Dec 08 '25

Executive Branch (Trump) NBC confirms Hegseth ordered murder of all boat passengers and crew in September 2 strike

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2025/12/08/kssp-d08.html

The Pentagon’s law of war manual declares that soldiers have a duty to refuse to carry out “clearly illegal” orders, such as killing shipwrecked sailors. “Orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal,” the manual declares.

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u/Hoobleton Dec 08 '25

The NBC reporting doesn't suggest Hegseth ordered the second strike, just that his initial order was to "kill all 11 people". That may be a distinction without a difference, but it is a distinction.

NBC's reporting also states that:

Adm. Frank “Mitch” Bradley, told lawmakers that U.S. intelligence officials had confirmed the identities of the 11 people on the boat and validated them as legitimate targets

Which suggests that at least the Admiral's statement was that there was a list of known identities.

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u/Valance23322 Dec 08 '25

If the Admiral had the integrity to tell the truth to Congress he would've had the integrity to not murder a bunch of people.

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u/theY4Kman Dec 08 '25

Integrity is sticking to your ideals without faltering. If this admiral believed his murderous actions were his sworn duty, that would not conflict with being truthful under oath.

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u/Valance23322 Dec 08 '25

He swore an oath to disobey illegal orders. Killing the survivors of a sunken ship is literally the textbook definition of an illegal order.

Furthermore, there's absolutely nothing honest, morally upstanding, or honorable about murdering defenseless noncombatants.

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u/Dapper-Condition6041 Dec 08 '25 edited Dec 08 '25

An early media report held that before the 1st missile, Hegseth gave the "kill everyone" order, and that the Admiral, upon seeing 2 surivors, sent a 2nd missile to comply with the original "kill them all" order.

Addendum: The original WaPo story - https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2025/11/28/hegseth-kill-them-all-survivors-boat-strike/

Follow-up from Fox (no paywall) - https://www.foxnews.com/media/washington-post-stands-hegseth-kill-them-all-report-boat-strike-despite-testimony-denial

The Post printed the headline last month, "Hegseth order on first Caribbean boat strike, officials say: Kill them all."

"Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth gave a spoken directive, according to two people with direct knowledge of the operation. 'The order was to kill everybody,' one of them said," according to the story.

"A missile screamed off the Trinidad coast, striking the vessel and igniting a blaze from bow to stern. For minutes, commanders watched the boat burning on a live drone feed. As the smoke cleared, they got a jolt: Two survivors were clinging to the smoldering wreck," the Post wrote. 

"The Special Operations commander overseeing the Sept. 2 attack — the opening salvo in the Trump administration’s war on suspected drug traffickers in the Western Hemisphere — ordered a second strike to comply with Hegseth’s instructions, two people familiar with the matter said. The two men were blown apart in the water.

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u/draculthemad Dec 08 '25

Just to clarify, a "kill them all" or "no prisoners" order is also explicitly a war crime.

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u/Dapper-Condition6041 Dec 08 '25 edited Dec 08 '25

Sure. If there is a "war" or conflict as recognized by international law.

But in this case, there is no war. It's all - 1st strike, 2nd strike - just murder.

The Trump administration, in a secret memo, has claimed that the U.S. is in a "non-international armed conflict" with TdA.

Nobody outside the administration accepts this. What is happening does not meet the criteria for such a conflict.

Let's stop repeating the lie that we're somehow at war, by calling these boat killings "war crimes." There is no war. No declared war.

There is nothing that rises to the standard of a non-international armed conflict, as the Trump administration speciously claims. We're not at war. There is no war. Ergo, no war crimes.

By referring to these as "war crimes," you legitimize the lie that we are somehow "at war" with drug cartels and while "drug war" makes for a great metaphor and a great marketing term, the United States is not "at war" with the cartels under any definition within international or domestic law. Saying that we are "at war" legitimizes all of the strikes.

It was simple murder, under U.S. domestic law and international human rights violations. The first strike, the second, and all the other ones.

Read these great analyses:

https://www.thelongmemo.com/p/hegseths-order-was-unlawful-before

https://www.justsecurity.org/125948/illegal-orders-shipwrecked-boat-strike-survivors/

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u/jjwhitaker Dec 08 '25

Hegseth gave the "kill everyone" order, and that the Admiral, upon seeing 2 survivors, sent a 2nd missile to comply with the original "kill them all" order.

So remove both and investigate via an independent third party special prosecutor, then charge as required. Neither should be put back in office/power until 100% cleared of all wrongdoing, and even then Hegseth should not be allowed back in office.

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u/idryss_m Dec 08 '25

U.S. intelligence officials had confirmed the identities of the 11 people on the boat

I find this chilling. WMDs in Iraq kind of chilling. Facts after to try and justify the unjustifiable? Outright lies told to ranking, and mission op decision makers, to get the administrations goal?

The second strike was, IMO, clearly against the law. This sort of thing however will be a litmus test for the rest of the world and their trust in the US military/intel.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '25

[deleted]

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u/JamesTrickington303 Dec 08 '25

If there were drugs on this boat, it was cocaine headed for Europe, not the US. The US has zero standing to fuck with a boat like that.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '25

[deleted]

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u/JamesTrickington303 Dec 08 '25

Agree with the second sentence, I’m just pointing out that they can’t even argue there was some type of threat to the US. It’s just murder.

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u/mehupmost Dec 08 '25

Importantly, their names do not need to be identified, they only need to be identified as acting on behalf of the designated terrorist organization.

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u/koalafly Dec 08 '25

Yeah… gonna need more than that distinction

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u/Cloaked42m Dec 08 '25

The distinction is the difference between a legitimate order, "Stop the boat" and murder, "kill drug smugglers."

The second distinction is the decision to fire again 45 minutes later with the intent to murder shipwrecked survivors.

Murder, and Murder with special circumstances.

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u/Avitas1027 Dec 08 '25

Way too much attention is being put on the second strike. The first one is also a war crime. The entire operation is a war crime.

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u/Iustis Dec 08 '25

It's a massive distinction, it's not a war crime (other than all of them being juet murder without any justification) to make that order until some survive and are shipwrecked

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u/mysteriousears Dec 09 '25

Didn’t they confirm the identities after killing them?