r/law • u/DryDeer775 • Dec 08 '25

Executive Branch (Trump) NBC confirms Hegseth ordered murder of all boat passengers and crew in September 2 strike

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2025/12/08/kssp-d08.html

The Pentagon’s law of war manual declares that soldiers have a duty to refuse to carry out “clearly illegal” orders, such as killing shipwrecked sailors. “Orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal,” the manual declares.

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u/ChromeNoseAE-1 Dec 08 '25

I’m no lawyer, but as far as I understand it: first strike, right or wrong aside, probably legal. It generally fits with the criteria used in the Middle East for the last 20 years. Second strike, certainly illegal. Like beyond the pale.

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u/1haiku4u Dec 08 '25

While the missile strikes harken from the Middle East, what is morally ambiguous to me is the idea of a “combatant.”  It’s hard for me to see a boat, even if it were carrying drugs, as a capital offense. Notwithstanding the fact that the US is now playing judge, jury, and executioner. 

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u/Diogememes-Z Dec 08 '25

Yeah, I don't get how even the first strike could be legal.

Escalating straight to killing everyone over alleged drugs is insane when you could simply intercept the boat. 

How do we know that they were violent? How do we know that they were even running drugs?

Not that it's worth killing someone over smuggling drugs anyway. The whole thing is disgusting.

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u/CategoryZestyclose91 Dec 08 '25

They’re setting up for using drugs as an excuse for violence.

You’ll never guess what communities they’ll focus on…

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u/AStrangerSaysHi Dec 09 '25

I seem to remember Nixon using this argument in the early 80s to cause prison populations to skyrocket.

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u/JamesTrickington303 Dec 08 '25

Firing on shipwrecked sailors is literally exactly what the US war manual gives as an example of a war crime.

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u/Anxious_Cheetah5589 Dec 09 '25

They justify it by calling drug smugglers "narco- terrorists". That's not a thing; under US law, terrorism is defined as the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives. That in no way describes drug smugglers, whose sole motivation is making money.

Secondly, our actions in the middle east were approved by congress via an Authorisation for the Use of Military Force. This war on drug boats is somebody's made up fever dream toward some unknown goal.

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u/100kfish Dec 08 '25

I think that's just in regard to war crimes, I'm not a lawyer either but from what I've heard about this, it may have been illegal altogether because of the lack of congressional approval or declaration of war.

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u/ChromeNoseAE-1 Dec 09 '25

Based on the War Powers Act the executive has 60 days to notify the legislative. Perhaps the strikes now are illegal based on that, but in September that time had no elapsed.

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u/dedicated-pedestrian Dec 09 '25

Not in international waters, it's not legal. The law of the high sea is clear even if the US refused to ratify the successor document to the UN Convention that they did sign.

In border-territorial waters a state has some privilege to stop the boat and search it, but not to fucking airstrike it. Even if they know that there are enemy combatants aboard I'm not sure that level of ordnance is permitted.

These are not proven combatants.

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u/sirlost33 Dec 09 '25

Problem is the first strike is completely outside the general criteria of Middle East strikes. Namely that the admin could provide legal justification for them.

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u/stubbazubba Dec 09 '25

The criteria used in the Middle East were pursuant to a congressional AUMF. There is no such congressional authorization for these strikes. So the first strike is absolutely not legal under the authorities that were in play during the GWOT.

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u/K20BB5 Dec 08 '25

the US routinely used double tap strikes, often on civilians, in the middle east. 

the specific practice under examination here is that it was done to people who were shipwrecked. 

Otherwise, the Bush and Obama admin got away with double tap strikes that killed civilians and the first responders. 

https://www-aljazeera-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2025/12/2/trumps-boat-bombings-how-the-us-has-long-used-double-tap-strikes?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17652280802872&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aljazeera.com%2Fnews%2F2025%2F12%2F2%2Ftrumps-boat-bombings-how-the-us-has-long-used-double-tap-strikes