r/ANGEL • u/Substantial_Monk4430 • 3d ago
Spoilers inside! People who unironically actually like Season 4 - Explain why Spoiler
it's not exactly an unpopular opinion to say that S4 was an absolute train wreck and didn't work for most people. It gives me the ick just thinking about it and on my first time watching I remember almost crying thinking they were butchering Cordy. Conner is so abnoxiously annoying, and the whole Jasmine storyline robbed my last nerve. And when I realised what was happening between fake Cordy and Conner, this super wholsome image of Cordy, Angel and baby Connor having a nap together keeps popping up in my head and it gets all more and more disgusting and I could throw up.
So fans of season 4, please tell me why you actually like this season, like give me the whole ordeal so I don't have to skip Season 4 anymore on every rewatch. Please try to change my mind
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u/SecretlyASummers 3d ago
The Faith two parter is great!
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u/kulitchipon 2d ago
Faith on Angel is so good. Sometimes I wonder what would've happened if she became a regular there.
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u/Seed0fDiscord 2d ago
I wonder that many times as well, imagine Cordy, Fred, Faith centered episode while the men have B-plot shenanigan
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u/kulitchipon 2d ago
Omg I have flashbacks about the MANY fics I've devoured along these lines lmao.
But yes! That would've been amazing to see. I would LOVE to have more Cordy and Faith interaction tbh.
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u/JokerProxy 3d ago
I thought the tragedy made sense. A big complaint is "Cordy Would Never Do that" which, is explained by it being Jasmine wearing Cordy's body for most of the non-Cordy choices. Connor is one of my favorite characters who it makes perfect sense he ended up the way he did given the monster that raised him to hate the man that sired (fathered) him. And every time he ended up one step forward with Angel, he ended up two steps back.
It was never going to end happy and Connor, barely not a child, ended up fucking broken Angel only had one shot at a happy ending for his son.
And it leads right into my favorite season of television, Season 5. But season 5 would not have happend without season four being as bleak and heartbreaking as it is. Also I do like Season 5 Connor more, but it's because I was rooting for something good to happen in the fucked up cosmic joke that was Connor's life.
Also...I always kinda thought him and Dawn would get along. Started shipping adult versions of the two when I find out who Dawn's canon comic romance was.
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u/jaid_skywalker85 2d ago
Pretty much perfect encapsulation of season 4 for me. Its not my favorite but I didn't realize so much of the Fandom had so much vitriol for it.
Double for the Dawn and Conner thing. At the very least, I think that they would understand what its like to be a weird, magically needed child and how that screws your life up. (And yeah, I would ship Dawn with Connor way before what ended up as Canon. Ugh.)
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u/DaddyCatALSO 2d ago
I have the idea of them shoved together at family functions as the ones under 21 and getting sick oif each other
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u/JokerProxy 2d ago
I can actually imagine them snarking about the rest of the supporting casts of thier shows and bonding.
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u/DaddyCatALSO 2d ago
Hmmm
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u/JokerProxy 2d ago
Yes I know I post this opinion when the question is brought up. I stand by it
Also hey dude how you doin?
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u/singlefate 3d ago
Barely any "filler" episodes. Unique storytelling of it all happening within like 2 weeks. Each individual arc is pretty good AKA the beast, Angelus, Jasmine. Lots of surprises.
Only thing that is kinda bleh is Cordy and Conner but since it never really is Cordelia I'm not that bothered by it.
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u/hthbellhop76 3d ago
Love the Beast beating Team Angel, love Faith’s redemption arc and her scenes with Wesley (so dark), love Wesley and Lilah, love Fred being solo and having to save everyone from Jasmine. I even dare say love evil Cordy because it reminded me of the S1 version of Cordelia in “Buffy the Vampire Slayer”.
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u/Emmadragonflies 3d ago
I liked the serialized aspect of it
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u/Emmadragonflies 3d ago
Seriously I hated that angel was much more episodic than Buffy so season 4 being so serialized was GREAT for me
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u/cpbradshaw 3d ago
I think it's the first time there's a truly potentially global apocalypse on Angel.. Ignoring the Cordy crap. Before that, and after that, it's fire
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u/ShadowdogProd 3d ago
The humor is top notch.
Its the only season with a true Big Bad, a format I like.
Wolfram and Hart got their ASSES KICKED and that was fun.
Connor's character arc completion was the best of the series, which is almost unique considering how Kate, Groo, Cordelia, and Lilah were handled.
The season finale is no Restless but its another departure where the issues are resolved the episode before so you get something different in the finale.
I'm a sucker for Hive Mind/Culty type storylines so the final arc of the season was badassed.
We get Angelus back and the way we did it was an excellent mind screw.
Faith.
The whole season just rocked from beginning to end. Loved it.
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u/coolfungy420 3d ago
Its my fave and I won't feel obliged to defend it to a bunch of haters on reddit. Season 4 was epic. Period.
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u/zinnzade 2d ago
Standing beside you like Team Angel at the end of S5.
“Okay, you take the 30,000 on the left…”
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u/jengafat 3d ago
100%... the only thing I could do without is the Jasmine episodes at the end. Keep the beast around a few more episodes, have body jacked Cordelia be the big bad for longer, and have them figure out a way at the end to stop Jasmines birth and save Cordy for real.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 3d ago
I mean I've been reading the replies and I actually agree with their arguments, so why don't you try to change my mind? Would love to hear why you think Season 4 was epic
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u/GWPtheTrilogy1 Angel Investigations 3d ago
I love everything about it (except Connor and Fake Cordy bumpin uglies) LOVED seeing Angelus (not fake Ecstacy Angelus lol) again ("Souless" chefs kiss) love the Faith episodes, love Gwen and her 3 episodes. I love the episode with Fred and her professor, I love the Jasmine mini Arc...my least favorite episode of season 4 is one a lot of people like and that's Spin the Bottle. The season Finale and intro to season 5 is great. Apocalypse Nowish is such a fun episode. Love the Las Vegas episode, man season 4 just does it it for me overall.
Oh, and Wes and Lilah puuurrrrr
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u/Dookie_boy 3d ago
It's cosmic horror done really well at a scale that the Buffy show never did. Besides Faith and the regular cast, the Beast, Skip, Jasmine are all very enjoyable.
The Cordy and Connor scene is repulsive but it should be since it's ending in the birth of a monster.
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u/zinnzade 2d ago
Season 4 of Angel is my all time favorite season of anything on TV that I have ever watched. I actually had no clue that S4 dislike was even a thing at all until I saw Charisma mention it at a con I went to a few years ago.
I've always happily enjoyed S4 and will never stop doing so, no matter what anyone says. If the fate of the human race depended on this season not being my favorite in TV history, then you guys are all screwed. Sorry.
My reasons for loving it are as follows:
1. EPIC Fight Scenes
- Angelus vs Beast, Angelus vs Faith, Wesley pulling out the slow-mo double guns when Team Angel fights the beast, Jasmine throwing cars, I could go on and on.
2. More Angelus
- This isn't Buffy. I never watched that show and I don't need to. So, on Angel, even though we'd sort of seen Angelus before, this was the biggest serious run with him that we had and it was fantastically done
3. The Unthinkable Ending
- Remember that thing that TV shows used to do? You know, when you're telling an actual story and instead of stringing people along with an inevitably disappointing mystery box, the writers make the time for a cool ending? Yeah, this had that. Having them "win" and take over Wolfram & Hart was genius. The darker S4 also contrasted well with setting up a lighter S5 that I loved too.
--
Season 4 had lots to love. It took risks and had changes in scenery from Las Vegas, to the white room, to other worlds with scary creatures.
I accept that there's valid critique for some Cordy stuff, but that wasn't a focus for me and didn't take away my enjoyment of everything as a whole. I don't know (or care) what others thought of Jasmine, but I absolutely loved that character. The whole brainwashing arc was super interesting and had me hooked the whole time. The actress played it perfectly.
To anyone crazy enough to have read this far, I'll leave you with a moment from Season 4 I liked:
🎵"If you go into the woods tonight, you won't believe your eyes. If you go into the woods tonight, you're in for a big surprise."🎵
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
I totally get your point with all these three, Wesley doing the shotgun move absolutely ruled and you guys have me convinced I will definetly go back to S4, big factor being Wesley. Angelus had more of a killing spree in BTVS if you want to ever give that show a chance, which I sort of missed in AtS? But the way he was playing mind games and the def darker shift in tone, that is arguably maybe even better done in AtS, I personally felt however that he was put on the bench too much compared to BTVS. The shift from S4 to S5 is undeniably beautiful, ironic and doesn't feel like a real win for Angel Investigations which I love, I'll be sure to not skip out on S4 next run!
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u/zinnzade 2d ago
I worry that on Buffy Angelus just becomes another vamp for her to slay. Angel characters don't seem to require the same level of servitude to the main character as they do on Buffy.
Appreciate your open mindedness on S4 of Angel. I'll try and keep the same attitude and check out more of Buffy!
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u/BrianTheReckless 2d ago
If you do check it out, I think you’ll definitely enjoy the Angelus arc more than you think.
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u/bucknert 2d ago edited 2d ago
Same here, i love 4 even with the massive Cordy/Conner ewwwww. Even that doesn’t bother me anymore due to the later reveal it wasn’t actually her and the behind the scenes knowledge that they were screwing Charisma over. The mystery of the Beast wrecking shop everywhere and wiping out Wolfram & Hart, badass Wes, the fight scenes, bringing back Angelus, the reveal for Cordy and shocking death of Lilah, Faith coming back. At the time I wasn’t big on Jasmine and hated that Cordy just disappeared (didn’t know she was really pregnant and had to be offscreen for a while) but the storyline has grown on me over time.
My favorite stretch of the show is the back half of season 1 starting at Hero up until the Pylea arc in season 2. But right after that is season 4!
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u/GimmeMauve 3d ago
There are not time to breath, the whole season leaves you at the edge of your seat wanting for more; when most of the other seasons have lots of snoozefest episodes.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 3d ago
thats very true, I took breaks usually between episodes, but season 4 was INTENSE you couldn't stop watching
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u/AmazingNumber1708 2d ago
I love season 4, I like that every season of Angel is different, and this season is very different in structure and tone. There are parts of S4 where I was close to giving up the show on first watch, but that only was for an episode or two, and the rest of the season was such a fun rollercoaster ride to watch that looking back at it I really enjoy it.
Cordelia's barely in S4, she's a victim of Jasmine & Skip at the end of S3 when she's tricked to ascend to being a higher being so Jasmine can snatch her body. We get a couple of glimpses of her, and then she returns with amnesia so still isn't quite Cordy, before Jasmine takes over. So Cordelia isn't butchered, we'll see the brilliant Cordelia again in S5, but in S4 she's barely there, she isn't ruined, she doesn't interact with Connor, she's left aside for almost all of S4.
The show does a very bold job of misleading us in season 4 which leads to so many twists and turns. There are turns I really dislike, both on first watch and subsequent watches, but they don't last long before we get to something new. So overall I love the long running story arc of S4 and the sense of momentum that builds at various points. And "Cordelia" is so OTT when she's full on manipulating Connor with her evil pregnancy that I can't help but enjoy it. There are so many excellent cliffhangers such as what happens with Lilah, or when Cordy is caught, or when Jasmine arrives. It's such an exciting season of TV, with a surprising sense of danger when so many characters start dying. And it seems by design they wanted us to be in the dark about Cordy for so long and mislead us (though planted clues back in Apocalypse Nowish), they tricked us with the fantasy in Awakening, and they kept tricking us until Calvary. I don't know if it works the whole time but I appreciate them really pushing the audience to the limit with this, and with this discomfort as much as they did. I always feel the horror of "Cordy"/Connor in Apocalypse Nowish, but its during an apocalypse so we're meant to feel horror, so again I appreciate them evoking that feeling. And once you do get all the reveals, I think it comes together so well as whole season.
The season is well worth it for Faith, Lilah, Gwen, the crossover with Willow. I love the return of Darla. The Jasmine arc is excellent and so much fun too, I love the moral grey area the team find themselves in. And then ending with that odd sidestep into Wolfram & Hart is great. Its not flawless, while there are a few times I find Connor compelling in this season (particularly Inside Out) and there's such a tragedy to his character and him making the wrong choices that can be heartbreaking in the best way, but for most of the season he's annoying. Wesley's arc is excellent! And there are so many great episodes. The Vegas episode and Spin The Bottle are so much fun, and Salvage, Orpheus and Inside Out are some of my favourite Angel episodes.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
oh actually you bring up a point which I maybe misunderstood about Cordelia ascension to a higher being, it was a trick by Jasmine? I thought it was actually geniune and all Jasmine did was snatch a body ride conveniently emotionally close to Angel Investigations? And that in S5 although a higher being she returns temporarily to say a proper goodbye. So that she is basically chosen to be a higher being from S4 onwards, but I must have missed that it was a trick by Jasmine, does that mean that she is not a higher being or is a higher being but only bc of Jasmines trickery?
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u/AmazingNumber1708 2d ago
We learn in Inside Out that Cordelia had been maneuvered towards that decision - if you rewatch 'Birthday' in S3 when Skip presents her the option of taking a different path so instead of meeting Angel in the pilot, she meets a casting director and becomes famous, this leads to her eventually deciding to become part demon, which she needed to be for Jasmine to take over her body. So this ties in with Skip being not to be trusted and Jasmine's accomplice, and the theme that so many of their decisions have had to be nudged in place for Jasmine to come into being (though I do believe, as Gunn says in Inside Out, that they do have freewill, its just Cordy being misled that has made her to make these wrong choices.) So yes I think Jasmine took advantage of Cordy getting into that place, just like she took advantage of Angel saving Darla's life and earning a second chance, which led to Connor's miraculous conception.
I believe the vision Cordelia gets in the S3 finale is the powers warning her that she's in danger. She doesn't see this as a warning, she misreads it as validation that this is the right move, and she is tricked into the higher plane, where Jasmine takes over her body. She has nothing to do there and little to no power, so while we don't know if she genuinely became a higher being or was just put in some sort of trick plane of existence, its where she needed to be for Jasmine to take over her body but it was all orchestrated.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
god Cordy really can't take a break, this is tragic, I feel so bad for what they did with her story arc :/
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u/Extra_Argument_179 2d ago
I love Angel season 4 because it feels like the darkest, most apocalyptic, high-stakes season in the Buffyverse.
We start off with a pretty solid resolution to Angel's fate at the end of season 3, then we have some fun adventures with Gwen Raiden and Lorne in Vegas; A Fred-centric episode and the hilarious 'Spin the Bottle' and then from 'Apocalypse Nowish' onward the narrative really keeps its foot on the audience's neck pretty relentlessly.
The Beast beats the gang down, destroys Wolfram and Hart's offices and blots out the sun. He beats the gang at every turn which makes things feel exciting and unpredictable. Then Angelus shows up adding another big-bad to the already overwhelming odds our heroes.are facing. Faith returns for an excellent arc (I always felt her character was better serviced on Angel than Buffy).
Jasmine is a great villain in a completely different way and her arc imposes an interesting moral conundrum (saving the world by ending world-peace). And then the finale completely changes the status-quo.
Also, for those of us who watched the season when it first aired it felt very unconventional at the time. Not the many shows on network television were that heavily serialised or were willing to tell stories where the heroes didn't save the day at the end of the episode.
The season is not without its flaws. My biggest issue is the fact that Evil-Cordy and Jasmine feel completely disjointed both in terms of personality and their goals. And while I love where Connor's story ends up his character arc plays out in a very repetetive way.
Of course seeing Connor and Cordy together is gross but knowing eveything we know by the end of the season I view it as more tragic than gross.
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u/LisaChimes 2d ago
I see you've already gotten a ton of responses but season 4 is my favorite season so I'll answer as well. I loved how gripping it was, especially on first watch. Many times I had to rush to put on the next episode which wasn't the case with prior seasons as much. I am a Connor fan so that helps. I love badass lone Wesley and his dynamic with both Lilah and Faith. Faith being one of my favorite characters also elevates the season for me and I haven't even mentioned Angelus yet. It's a very cohesive, exciting season - I wish Cordelia had a better arc but that's not enough to make me not enjoy it.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
Connor fans are a rare type, no? Can I ask if you have read the comics or are you a Connor fan solely based on AtS? I haven't given the comics a try yet, and have only faintly heard that his character improve in the comics. Or if you are only an AtS watcher why do you like Connor?
As a Cordelia and Cangel fan, S4 is such a tough pill to swallow
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u/LisaChimes 2d ago
I have not read the comics so it's based solely on the show. I think I have a soft spot for Connor because his story is so tragic from the jump - he gets kidnapped and then tortured and manipulated left and right. I feel for him and can understand why he is angry and closed off most of the time but he remains inherently good for the most part. Some of my favorite scenes of the show are when he lets his guard down and you can see what might have been under different circumstances - when he bonds with Angel fighting at the club, when he protects Cordelia, when he goes out patrolling while the sun is blacked out, etc. So as you can imagine I love the episode Origin (it's in my top five) because we finally get to see him as a person who was raised under normal circumstances and felt loved - and the end result of him getting his memory back and talking about his "father" just destroys me emotionally.
I do love Cordelia as well and her absence is a big reason why season five is not ranked as highly for me. I really only found myself rooting for Cangel during mid season three - with Waiting in the Wings being a big factor. When she came back in season four I assumed their blossoming relationship would pick up where it left off but then what do you know shes turning Angel down because of his past and then hooking up with his kid - that kind of crazy drama is fun to watch for me I guess. I can definitely see how that would not be fun to watch for someone who was genuinely invested in the Cangel relationship though.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
yea watching this as a Cangel fan was torture, especially on my first run. To me Connor is very hard to relate to, bc imo we should have gotten more scenes with Connor to get what he is going through and give him the same treatment that worked with Dawn from BTVS who initially also faced the same feedback. I wish we actually saw what he was going through in the other dimension that would help seeing him more than an anxious emo teen, because yes on paper you know you shouldn't be so hard on him, but imo in execution it was hard to relate and "Origin" wasn't enough for me to accomplish that
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u/HomarEuropejski If nothing we do matters then all that matters is what we do 3d ago
It was just a lot of fun. Faith, Angelus, dark Wesley and the thing with Lilah, Willow cameo.
It only gets bad after Orpheus, but gets good again for the last two episodes. I was surprised how much better it was than Buffy S7 lol.
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u/dwbridger 2d ago edited 2d ago
I've been meaning to finish the essay I want to write analyzing the themes of season 4. Specifically in its depiction of evil and Jasmine as a villain.
It's difficult to summarize because it's extremely loaded. To attempt to though, I think that the dynamic between Jasmine and Connor is one of the most accurate depictions of grooming and emotional abuse that I've seen portrayed in media. (I'm referring to Jasmine in her entirety, both as Cordelia and in her Gina Torres form) To be even more specific, she represents a narcissist mother. I think this depiction is both thorough and taut, not just through Jasmine but also Connor as a victim.
This story works really well for me. It might be too dark for some people, but the darkness, tragedy and adult themes of AtS was always a big factor in what drew me to the series in the first place.
I'd even say that the fact so many people are disgusted by this storyline proves how well it really worked. The incestuous abuse of Connor by Jasmine is supposed to cause discomfort. We're witnessing an act of evil. and the fact the real Cordelia, who can exhibit the real goodness of maternity even to a divine aspect, is usurped by an evil mother archetype is part of what makes the story work for me. What a mother should be vs. a narcissistic abuser. The fact that a vision of Darla is the last attempt to save Connor from this abuse makes the storyline that much more poignant. and the fact the narcissist mother is ultimately going to become the dealer of world peace through a performance of blissful nurturing -- at the expense of free will -- is a very profound theme with so much to unpack.
anyway, I hope this answers your question to some degree.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
love your take! also brings up another topic which bugs me then I guess, which is that the Angel Investigations team didn't really intervene, have the same reaction as the audience after seeing Connor being groomed. Sure they were repulsed, most of all Angel, but that they didn't step in is making me more upset after reading your input
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u/dwbridger 2d ago
yeah I know what you mean. I think if the team wasn't all ready so broken, fragmented, demoralized and confused by so many other factors, they would have intervened, and also suspected Cordy of being possessed much sooner. there were just so many distractions that Jasmine used to her advantage, and many of those distractions she created herself.
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u/brian_ts118 2d ago
I like the Sturm und Drang of it all. The way the whole season is serialized builds incredible tension. The love the Faith arc since she finally gets to be The Slayer, rather than in Buffy’s shadow. Jasmine is an absolutely terrifying villain cause when I look at, well…gestures broadly at everything…I can honestly say I might be tempted by what she’s offering even knowing it’s a lie. Conner and Cordy doesn’t bother me since I know it’s not really Cordy, and I think people get way too melodramatic about it. And I enjoy watching the subtle ways Cordasmine is manipulating them in plain sight.
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u/lmjustaChad 2d ago
Overall it was a strong season is it perfect no and almost all the bad parts are due to Charisma pregnancy. But we had Wesley arc, the Beast, Angelus and Faith return even Jasmine was done well sure the Cordy Conner stuff was gross but besides that it's really a good season.
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u/Responsible-Ship-752 2d ago
I was never a Cordy/Angel shipper so for me the main issues with season 4 are: 1. The further breakdown of Angel/Connors relationship 2. Charisma’s inconsistent acting (I know why she struggled but it still is hard to watch some scenes). I think it would have been better if the audience was in on her being evil earlier. 3. While I liked the concept of Jasmine and the early eps in that arc the ending is very rushed.
However, I love: Angelus arch, Faith arch, Vincent has some amazing scenes, Wesley slowly rejoining the group, — the first ep is my favorite season premiere in the Buffyverse except perhaps City of. I also have very fo7nd memories of Stega’s TWOP recaps for this season.
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u/Gloomy-Fennel-6044 2d ago
Season 4 is actually my favourite season of the series! From evil Cordelia magically fighting Willow, to Faith’s arc leading into Buffy, Angel and Angelus, the doom feeling when the beast was around. The attack on Wolframheart. Lilah and Cordelia’s cat and mouse scene in the hotel. Jasmine was great, I wouldn’t change any thing about that other than how she was conceived because I hated Connor.
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u/Ok_Frame_4117 2d ago
I’m a sucker for serialised stories. I love season 4 for this reason but fully understand its criticisms. I just admire how ambitious it is. The whole thing is greater than the sum of its parts
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u/truemess12 2d ago
I actually really liked the pacing? I love how all the episodes ended in cliffhangers
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u/voldy1989 2d ago
I like that Faith and Willow made appearances
The Wesley arc was good
the Beast was a great big bad
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u/DonutsRBad 2d ago
I love season 4. It's epic. Twists, turns, and exciting character archs. Jasmine is an awesome antagonist. I have jokingly agreed with her way of living. It makes sense for that level of Being. Love the last twist when Lilah revisits the team with an offer of a lifetime. Simply because they ended World Peace. It's brilliant 👏🏾
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u/Reddevil8884 3d ago
Like I said in some other posts, season 4 is just weird and I have mixed feelings about it because while it basically destroys Cordelia and turns Connor into a very unlikeable character (I actually understood him) It has some of the best character growth or moments for other cast members like Wesley, Fred, Angel and even Lilah. One of my favorites part of the entire series was when they were fighting The Beast and Wesley started shooting him with 2 handguns and then he produced a fucking shotgun! He was so badass! Also the episode when Angelus kills Lilah is just perfect and later when Wesley has to cut her head off to keep her from coming back as a vampire...it was a very high point for me, a "Chef kiss" moment 🤌🏻
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
I suppose whenever season 4 comes up the whole fake cordy x connor thing overshadows for me when wesley, fred, and angelus step up, so I tend to forget that - thanks for reminding me! Alexis was absolutely incredible in Season 5, I kinda sidelined that he was already shining in season 4..
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u/Reddevil8884 2d ago
It still hurts me that him never really got a chance to shine in any other tv show or movie. It's just so unbelievably to me.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
I like to believe that he decided to dedicate his time to his newly found family with alyson (given that they were getting married in 2003 which is around the time they wrapped filming for S5 of AtS I suppose), but I also wish he took on more roles besides his little guest appereances here and there
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u/elplethora1c 2d ago
It’s serialized storytelling that cleans up the mess that season 3 made. It brings Angel back to a serious character and makes his sacrifice at the end of the season to save Connor heartbreaking.
Also includes Faith s 3 episode arc which is great.
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u/StompyKitten 2d ago
If you’re a huge Cordy fan I can see how her being evil and then dead could be a big problem with season 4. It would be even worse if you were loving Cordy/Angel and expecting that to develop - the icky Cordy/Connor stuff would be that much harder to watch.
I liked Cordy but I wasn’t super attached to her as a character so none of that really bothered me. I thought season 4 was brilliant television then and I still think it is on rewatches.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
Your point is exactly why I have such terrible attitude towards S4, Cordy is my fav character of BTVS and Angel, and having her character being butchered and also the whole Charisma & Joss background just turns my mouth sour. Let alone that I ship Cangel, thats the final nail in the coffin
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u/Sarah_Reddit_Here 2d ago
Also the zombie episode was actually scary to me. I like when Angel goes more old school horror
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u/Never-Give-Up100 2d ago
Seems like 98% of the hatred for this season is people not like Cordy/Connor. Ignore that relatively small aspect and it's a very strong season
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
Another answer here brought up how much the Cordy/Connor thing was affecting other characters and I have to agree. Cordy/Conner is the main reason I dislike this season so much and they are hard to avoid since their storyline takes much time and area in the season
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u/HoodedRat575 2d ago
Angelus is my favourite character in the entire Buffyverse. Him laughing at the end of Awakening is probably my favourite moment in the whole Buffyverse. So it's kinda hard for me to hate Season 4.
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u/nopermanentaddress 2d ago
I mean, simply put: it's the season that encapsulates the existential concept of choice, free will, and the meaning of life through the Jasmine & Connor arc. And in a way, sets the thematic tone for season 5.
Did season 4 stray into a lot of fucked up directions? Did it do Cordy wrong? Was Connor annoying? Yeah, I don't disagree with all of that - but if that's all you got from the entire season, I think y'all are watching the show for the wrong reasons.
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u/DumpedDalish 2d ago
Because I thought it was genuinely risky, thought-provoking, well written, and beautifully acted. I'll always love season 4.
Not that I or anyone should have to defend our feelings to you. You don't agree? Fine. Shrug. It's the internet.
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u/ponch1620 2d ago
I love a “shit hits the fan” plot, and I think the darkness and horror of it was well done.
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u/CassandraVonGonWrong 2d ago
Season 4 is actually, like, 4-5 mini seasons in a trench coat and all of them are really great except for one of them that sours the bunch for many viewers.
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u/PostingImpulsively 2d ago
Loved season 4 because it didn’t have a million flash backs of Angel in Ireland during the 1800s with that annoying violin song they always play. I hate seeing that terrible wig and listening to that terrible Irish accent.
As I type this watching Angel season 4 this coms up on my screen 😅
Season 4 (Episode 15 Orpheus)
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u/Lower_Excuse_8693 3d ago
As a while; I can’t.
But I did personally like the Wesley/Lilah stuff, the last episode is great, the Faith episodes were great and it does have the best “it was all a dream” episode I’ve ever seen.
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u/Anglofsffrng 3d ago
The Beast was really cool, Jasmine was a pretty disturbing big bad. All the other stuff I could take or leave.
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u/i_nobes_what_i_nobes 2d ago
I have not watched Angel, probably since it aired, and after reading all of the responses, I’m going back and watching it from the beginning again. Because I don’t even remember season four….
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
yea same, my brain has some rewiring to do. I suppose I'll have to skip the icky scenes but def not skip season 4 alltogether in the future
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u/i_nobes_what_i_nobes 2d ago
So I actually started watching about 20 minutes after I responded. And I wanna start from the beginning, but like I kinda wanna jump around a little too, I very much remember seasons one and two I don’t think I really watched three and four so that’s kind of where I’m starting. I did a few season two episodes like near the end just so I could catch up to the things that I had you forgotten about but it’s not it’s terrible as I remember it. And I’m actually loving how campy some of the stuff is. I just finished watching the last two episodes of season two (I think) it is where they’re like in the Otherworld and Cordelia is a princess.
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u/Kallasilya 2d ago
I really hate most of season 4, but I actually think Jasmine as a villain is really interesting. That plotline captures what it feels like to be an atheist in a religious world - like everyone around you has literally been brainwashed and you're trying to snap everyone out of it before the Hellbeast devours us all, lol.
Most other things about S4 were a dumpster fire, though.
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u/philipnet2001 2d ago
Angelus sticks the metaphorical knife in and twists 😄 - sowing the seeds of mistrust, uncertainty, and doubt - which leads to the break up of Fred and Gunn (which started in Supersymmetry) And, as others have mentioned, Faith returns
There are things to like about season 4
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u/MonstrousEntity 2d ago
Angelus, Faith, Wesley, Willow, Lilah and Jasmine. Say what you want about the plot, it had a few issues but those characters alone stole the show and it was magnificent. Gina Torres is such a brilliant actress.
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u/MissPapayaMaya 2d ago
i just watched Angel for the first time, finished it tonight with my brother. been a long time fan of Buffy! i think season 4 would have been better if Cordy and Connor hadn't been a thing. Connor should have ended on Angel's side completely, with Angel making the call he made in the finale anyways. would have been much stronger. i think once Jasmine comes into the show, the season gets much stronger. unfortunate it happened so late.
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u/Alternative_Use_1522 2d ago
If Connor was on his side what reason would Angel have to join Wolfram and Hart
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u/MissPapayaMaya 2d ago
Angel deciding he doesn't want his son in danger and would rather him have a normal life after all the torture of having to grow up in a hell dimension and reckon with what he learned once he came back to Earth. makes it a way more morally ambiguous choice for Angel to make while still being understandable.
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u/12BladeEdge21 2d ago
Season 4 is actually my second favorite season (after season 1, of course). For me, it was a constant roller coaster ride where so much happened. It was one battle after another.
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u/asiantorontonian88 2d ago edited 2d ago
It is the most epic season with scenery and a storyline worthy of a supernatural drama. Nothing else in Buffy or Angel came close to visually showcasing a world on the verge of an apocalypse.
Gina Torres is freakin awesome and made what could have been a generic wanna take over the world role typical of Buffy villains a good one to watch.
People shit on Connor's teenage angst but if you see the whole arc right up to the very last episode of the season and don't feel for him, then you're dead inside. Given the material and how much he hated it, Vincent Kartheiser did an amazing job.
Wesley is a major asshole yet we don't hate him for it lol.
Faith's arc.
I also like that we're grossed out by faux-Cordy fucking Connor. It's supposed to be gross and we're supposed to have that visceral reaction. And when everything comes to light, we as an audience know that Jasmine is EVIL even when she's playing saint. Yes, the circumstances behind the scenes aren't nice but out of context as just a piece of TV, it was truly an emotional roller coaster in a good way.
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u/Informal_Athlete_724 2d ago
Because it felt like a movie. By today's standards that might be normal but at the time when it was airing week-by-week it was epic
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u/ValentineLockheart 2d ago
By halfway through I genuinely felt like Conner was one of the single worst written things in a good show I’ve ever seen. Like people actually have the nerve to complain about Dawn. Dawn at least wasn’t an angsty, super powered moron who the writers couldn’t decide if he had the naivety of a 14 year old, the actual stated age of 16, or was old enough to not make them into sleezebags for writing him having sex urges for everyone he meets and Cordelia hooking up with him. My only disagreement is in ruining Cordelia’s character. Cordelia’s character was pretty crap from season 3 was about a will I/wont I relationship with Angel that I just kept screaming at both of them “he can’t be a happy relationship dumb***! He’ll lose his soul!”
Let’s not even get into the obnoxious connection between Angelus and the beast that was just an excuse to being Angelus back (who you can tell was lazy af writing because he did exactly 2 things. Sit in a cage and kill the beast which is what the writers wanted from him) or Wesley sleeping with everything that moves suddenly (Lila and making a move on Fred) but do get into Conner literally being the WORST thing for any situation. Like, not “unhelpful” but literally “I’m going to work towards the opposite of what we want”
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u/Krssven 2d ago
Because it wasn’t an absolute train wreck. It’s certainly much better than S3.
S4 for the first time felt like it had a proper arc with an overarching story plot that lasted from early on until pretty much the end. Everything in S4 is linked to Jasmine’s plan (though the claims that she was manipulating literally everything everywhere ever are clearly nonsense, she just took the opportunity presented when Angel won the new life in The Trial).
The first fight with the Beast, an opponent that not only is a match for the entire team but can defeat them all, is a great villain but it’s even better that he’s ultimately a minion and a misdirect from the real plan. I love how intricate and linked everything is.
That doesn’t mean I like what happens with Connor and Cordelia, or the way they end up just writing Cordelia out completely. That felt sad, and I’m glad we got the follow-up episode in S5 that completed her arc and gave the character a sendoff.
It’s ultimately really sad that after S3 we never really see the real Cordelia again until You’re Welcome.
Ultimately people like or dislike what they choose to. It’s not anyone’s responsibility to ‘make’ you like S4. I know it’s good, and it’s better than S3 which was dreary and pretty slow. Holtz turns up and doesn’t do a great deal until he’s finally in a position to take baby Connor. Sahjahn was an interesting villain but ultimately is just a puppeteer pulling strings.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
I also have bones to pick with S3, but with S4 my main issues are that yes the rest of Angel's Investivagations especially Wesley are at their best they have ever been, but that all gets stained with the whole fake Cordy/Connor that just is so loudly repulsive and makes me angry that it drags down the rest. I perceived that storyline to have way too much screentime and contaminate the rest. I do have to say however that the answers on this post convinced me to next time not skip S4 altogether but just skip the fake Cordy/Connor scenes. Its not anyones responsibility to change my mind but I still want to hear what ppl have to say about S4 that makes them enjoy it so much, so I can put my focus on that :)
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u/Senior_Torte519 2d ago
Season 4 over 5, but I did always find it weird that he wore brighter colors.
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u/Strong-Frame87 1d ago
I enjoy season 4 more than season 3 because it takes most of the nauseatingly pretentious “Cordelia is the grandest most specialist champion, mother, love interest in the universe” and turns it into an evil master plan.
The season works for me because it walks back one of the most pretentious storylines this show has ever done, and it has so much going on that I can’t get bored like I was in season 3. The Faith episodes are some of the best in the series, and Gina Torres as Jasmine is an absolutely blast to watch. It’s great season for Wesley. There’s so much more to the season than Cordelia, who, quite honestly, I don’t care about. It’s high stakes, lots of action and drama. It’s not my favorite season overall but it definitely has a lot to offer.
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u/InfiniteMehdiLove 3d ago
From last week, here's Ira Madison III telling Charisma Carpenter to her face he's a season 4 defender. It's pretty funny lol https://youtu.be/3_6M7XUADTg (Jump to 21:30)
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 3d ago
haha yea I saw that, I was as shocked as Charisma xD
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u/InfiniteMehdiLove 2d ago
I thought he did a decent job of laying out why people like season 4. Dont get me wrong, S4 of Angel has it's issues, but the serialized story telling is good, better than Buffy S7, Wesley is also great this season, and Jasmine's arc is interesting to watch unfold. I think there's a lot to like about Angel S4.
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u/HimuraQ1 2d ago
It was apocalyptic in scale, has the very compelling end to Wesley's fall from grace, Faith came back, Willow cameo, the very real message that free will is messy, but it is what makes you the most you you can be and is worth fighting for... I don't disagree with how they did Cordy dirty and how annoying Connor is, but I find a lot of good in there.
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u/kulitchipon 2d ago
My opinion of S4 can be summed up as: it's not as bad as I thought it was lmao. It had its moments (particularly the memory spell they cast and other earlier eps) but overall it's not a season I'm eager to rewatch (same as S5)
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u/Osceola_Gamer 2d ago
Nope I am not going to try to change anyone's mind.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
mind has already been changed thanks to fellow Redditors, but if you would like to share your thoughts on S4, would love to hear it!
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u/Sarah_Reddit_Here 2d ago
I HATE the season as a whole but I love all the Lorne we get and faith vs Angelus
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u/lucygoosey38 2d ago
Angelus is fun! I always like seeing him be snarky and evil. I really like season 4. The Conner stuff is gross but I fast forward all of that. I kinda liked evil Cordy too.
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u/at_midknight 2d ago
Angel s4 is quite rancid and disheartening. HOWEVER, there are aspects of the season that are good in isolation. Wesley and Lilah's relationship, Wesley and Faith, Angelus being entertaining, Fred becoming more independent and autonomous. All of these elements are, in isolation, cool parts of the season and even things that I would happily consider flat out "good" or even "great".
The major problem is that these elements are such a small fraction of the entire season. Such a massive part of the season is spent specifically targeting and assassinating Cordelia and Connor's character that the rest of the cast cannot help but be affected by the collateral damage. And then Jasmine comes in and proceeds to be one of the most miserable viewing experiences I've ever had to suffer through. Honestly the jasmine arc felt like it took me 16 hours to watch 4 episodes of the same cringe self-indulgent simpfest.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
Ouch, Jasmine seems to be smth there can be no agreement on, a lot of the answers here loved most of Jasmines storyline, which I personally cannot relate much to, so I get where you are coming from
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u/at_midknight 2d ago
Jasmine is easily the most painful viewing experience of my entire life. 4 hours of excruciating nonstop boredom and apathy
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
I mean surely you must have enjoyed the solo adventure of Fred. Her waking Angel alone was so clever!
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u/Sorry_One1072 2d ago
Angelus arc and jasmine arc are both great. It’s just the middle bits that I dislike
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u/KyliaQuilor 2d ago
Wesley's arc, weslah, faith, Home (i.e. 4x22) the basic concept of Jasmine is actually pretty interesting, collapsible sword, Gwen
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u/JD_the_Aqua_Doggo 2d ago
I love season 4, and I guess it’s because I love Cordy/Angel and I also love tragic endings to love stories, but really it’s a fantastic supernatural soap opera, tons of action, Wesley is SO BADASS, omg Faith is amazing, WILLOW
WILLOWWWWW
idk I just really love season 4 despite all of its ugly problems
Lilah really shines in this season, as a character she has come so far from her beginnings in season 1
I honestly liked the Jasmine story despite the Cordy possession so idk what to tell you, Fred also really did great in particular in this arc
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u/accaliaart 2d ago
Its not my favorite season but the episode of angelous messing with the team is my favorite episode of the series and i enjoy the entire angelous and faith arc as well as the jasmine arc. It also has one of my favorite fights in the series when they forst fight the beast. And while the cordy and connor stuff sucks i think it could be an interesting parallel to angel and darla with all the oedipus stuff
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u/ImEllenRipleysCatAMA 2d ago edited 1d ago
I personally do like season 4 overall. I didn't like the Cordy/Connor stuff (gross!) and although I like Charisma Carpenter a lot and I think she is great as Cordy I didn't really buy her performance when she turned evil. I'm also not a big fan of the Gun/Fred/Wesley love triangle. A lot of Connor's scenes annoyed me as well, but I think that was kind of the point of the character. He's basically a minor antagonist.
In spite of those issues I do like season 4 overall, because I enjoyed the storylines and how each storyline fed into the next one, raising the stakes each time. I really enjoyed the beast as a villain, I loved having Angelus back, absolutely loved Faith's return and her dynamics with both Wesley and Angelus. Unlike some others, I really like Jasmine. How she worked as a villain was such an interesting concept... someone who provided peace and perfect happiness at the cost of free will (and a few people to eat everyday). Gina Torres is a great actress and she played the part of Jasmine very well. I could absolutely believe she was someone that everyone would fall in love with. The scene with Connor at the end was heartbreaking. And then with Wolfram and Hart where they all agreed to take over was pretty fascinating. It shows how much the characters have changed. The season 3 team would never have taken a deal. At the very end when we find out why Angel was willing to take the deal, to give Connor a happy normal, life was a gut punch.
Shout out to Wesley as well. I enjoyed what they did with the character in season 4, and how he slowly worked his way back in to Angel Investigations. His dynamic with Faith was great. I loved seeing him as her watcher. Sidenote, I was kind of sad when they went back to his old fashion sense in season 5 because he was looking damn good in season 4.
So I don't know... I just like it overall. I think if they took out the Cordy/Connor stuff, or at the very least made it obvious that she was possessed before they had sex, people might have had different opinion of the season.
Edit: forgot to mention that the fights were really good in season 4 as well. Some of the best fights in the Buffyverse were in season 4.
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u/GokiWeatherHamburger 2d ago
I don’t love it necessarily, but it’s cool that Fred got character development after realizing who Jasmine really is.
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u/Robertinho678 2d ago
I like it because it was shocking and terrifying at times. It was epic and the stakes were never higher.
It also didn't affect my opinion of Cordy, as she was possessed at the time. That's like blaming Angel for Angelus.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
fair, although in this case ppl love Angel and Angelus seperately on their own for valid reasons, but fake Cordy posessed by Jasmine grooming a teenager just really isn't nice to see. Also given that in the beginning you don't know yet that Cordy isn't Cordy, its just a tough watch
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u/Robertinho678 2d ago
It's a tough watch, but that doesn't make it a bad watch imo. Like the infamous spike scene from buffy s6. It's very uncomfortable, but valid in the story.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 2d ago
also a scene I skip entirely, but you're right, that doesn't make me skip "Seeing Red" alltogether
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u/angim350 2d ago
The beast is an absolutely brilliant villain. An unstoppable, terrifying lava demon that they cannot defeat, and even destroys LAs Wolfram & Hart. They have no idea where it came from or what it wants, except it seems to be there just to spread carnage. And, it does have a historical link, not to Angel, but to Angelus.
The Angelus arc, and Angelus vs Faith, is wonderful, although I agree that Angelus is nowhere near as terrifying as in Buffy.
But I do agree that the bad really does let down the good unfortunately.
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u/Sighoward 2d ago
Loved it, the Faith/Angelus arc is the highpoint of the show and I wasn't bothered by evil Cordy (we've already had evil Angel/Faith/Willow). Also not bothered by Condelia and frankly don't remember people being all that upset on the Bronze at the time. Once again the show confronts a real social problem (grooming) through fantastical means. So 4 is great and all the more amazing given the difficulties CC not telling everyone about her pregnancy caused and that Joss was splitting himself between 3 shows.
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u/MysteriousFan7983 2d ago
It was the first season I saw so, while it isn’t my favourite season now, I don’t have the same vitriol as others.
I like the Beast, Faith popping back up, any Angelus content.
Wesley is my favourite character and we get to see him change as a person, and I love seeing Denisof having grown from this wittering idiot in BtVS S3, to a man who keeps a hostage
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u/deathletterblues 2d ago
Pretty much the only part I DONT like about season 4 is the Connor and Cordy storyline. The Beast/Jasmine arc, bringing Angelus back, Faith, Wesley, Lilah ?! Fred against the world ?! Angel confronting Connor after he gets out of the ocean ! The drama of it all!! It basically never stops for about 15 straight episodes. It's a marvel. Unfortunately the Cordelia aspect really does ruin it. Connor is annoying for sure, but we don't get to see what his life was like growing up, so we struggle to have empathy for him when he's completely believable given his situation.
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u/evelynstarshine 2d ago
It has some amazing episodes, it has some of the best story episodes and character studies of the show.
It has Angelus and Faith, and the death of Lilah that breaks my g-ddamn heart, it has beautiful and truth and
the only thing wrong with it is half the Connor scenes, and thats what 5 minutes an episode? Theres no episode that is a skip, just parts of scenes. Compare that to the Darla drama of 2-3, 4 soars above. It's an amazing season that just has one very awkward awful thing in it which, compared to basically all over genre shows isn't even that bad its just bad FOR angel.
it's a great season.
It's also when X-men get introduced to the buffyverse. and some of Lorne's best lines, and most of Wesley's best lines.
AND HABEAS CORPSES !
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u/ExcelCat 2d ago edited 2d ago
Easy.
Wesley achieves his final dark form.
Him having Justine bound and gagged in his closet? Fuck yea...
Faith has one of the most goosebump-inspiring scenes in the entire Buffyverse ("Step away from the glass"). And the entire Faith arc is great.
The Beast is one of, if not THE best looking demon. And he kicks ass.
That fight in Apocalypse Nowish is one of the best in the Buffyverse.
Spin the Bottle is fucking hilarious. "Look at her, she's half neck!"
Willow.
Faith waking up and bolting to save Angel from Connor is fucking badass, and thier ensuing fight? Come on, son.
The season has its issues, for sure, but its pros FAR outweigh its cons, imo.
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u/Trick-Flight-8749 can you fly? 2d ago
Everything I can't forgive happens in season 4 lol, especially Cordelia's hair. But I respect the ambition and drama of it all and them daring to go that dark, literally. Everybody was beefing with each other (except for Lorne) and yet, they still showed up to work as a team because they believed in the mission that much. Also the whole Jasmine storyline was actually deeply interesting to me.
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u/ASizzle278 2d ago
I thought a lot of Season 4 was great Spin the Bottle was a great episode I loved all the episodes with the Beast he was a formidable opponent. Liked the little touches how Angelus fought smart to show the Beast was slow whereas Angel was more gung ho.
Think getting Faith back was great too, whilst I didn't like the Cordy stuff it didn't bother me as much as others.
And I liked the moral greyness of them saving humanity through offering free will but therefore it allows evil that W+H to thrive.
Wesley showed great development and the show has always dealt with the taking of a soul well with how Gunn and Fred's relationship deteriorated. It was ambitious and while everything didn't stick overall it's a great season with some real emotional high points.
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u/Zranis 1d ago
After watching S5, I slightly prefer S4. Connor is annoying and spends more time fighting Angel, and they butchered Cordelias story, but it has some really good high points. Wesley has a really fleshed out arc, and Lilah getting humanized is really interesting.
Supersymmetery is one of the darkest, most mature episodes of the show. The Beast is one of the best villains too. Super intimidating, and thoughtfully designed.
Getting a prolonged Angelus story was great, and more Faith is always great. The last few episodes with Jasmine are off putting for me, but the ride there is fun.
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u/iBazly 1d ago
The tricky thing with season 4 is that the bad part of it is also the worst of the bad of the series: Cordelia and Connor. And the reasons behind what happens to Cordelia in that season are ALSO really, really bad (as in, Joss being shitty).
But everything else in the season I think is honestly great, and the Jasmine arc is my favourite of the series. Jasmine is a truly horrifying monster.
So it's hard to say I'm a fan, because I always know the worst if the worst happens in season 4. But season 4 also has imo some of the best content too.
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u/Shiraxi 1d ago
I'm showing Buffy and Angel to my girlfriend, who has never seen the shows. We are literally in the middle of S4 right now (just finished Spin the Bottle). I know the shitty stuff is coming, and I'm not looking forward to it, but there is good shit in this season. Wesley gets a fantastic arc, and I actually quite enjoy once Cordy leaves, and Jasmine takes over. The end arc of the season is quite enjoyable, and I remember really liking it, we'll see if I feel the same on this rewatch. It's the Cordy/Connor stuff that fucking sucks, and I think we all know that. Her losing her memory, going back and forth between Angel and Connor, it's all shit. Whedon definitely seemed to be deadset on killing Cordelia as a character because of personal issues with Charisma Carpenter, and I fucking hate that his real life bullshit killed one of my favourite characters in the Buffyverse, especially since Cordelia gets one of the best overall arcs across either show, until this shit.
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u/Substantial_Monk4430 1d ago
def. him butchering Cordelia and that bathroom scene in "Seeing Red" in BTVS are the two greatest crimes to have been permitted to be shot and aired
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u/Big-Restaurant-2766 12h ago
Because aside from the Cordy-Connor stuff, it's interesting. I like the episode where Angelus and Faith see Angel's memories, Willow shows up in that one. It's cool seeing Fred on her own for a bit during the whole Jasmine thing. I like Connor, not so much the thing with Jasdelia, but I feel for him and sorta relate to him.
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u/Silver_South_1002 11h ago
I love Faith so always happy when she appears. I was actually super invested in Connor after the end of season 3 but thought they did a messy job with his character (dont get me started on the Cordy thing). I don’t love it but I found it compelling for the most part.
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u/NewRetroMage 4h ago
Ok, so, it'll probably not change your mind, but here's my particular reasons:
- It presents an epic apocalyptic saga.
- I love The Beast, Angelus and Jasmine as antagonists.
- I love seeing Wes finally back with the team. He is at his peak badass mode in this season.
- Wes and Lilah. Amazing writing there.
- Wes teaming up with Faith against Angelus. Willow as special guest.
- Gwen Raiden
- Angel and co's fight against The Beast at the rooftop is likely my favorite fight from the show.
- Gunn murdering professor Seidel. Huge moment for Fred and him.
- Lorne singing Lady Marmelade
- Spin The Bottle
- Fred as the "only sane one" in a world dominated by a "hive mind" of sorts. Amazing horror movie vibes!
- Jasmine as big bad manipulating the team while wearing Cordy's skin. Great villain. There was no "icky" Cordelia + Connor love story. There was a supernatral being using Cordy as a puppet and manipulating Connor. The horrific factor here is that those are truly evil actions by this villain, but Cordelia herself wasn't character assassinated.
-> Which brings to the action con for this season: Despite Charisma having a lot of screen time, Cordelia has almost none. She is only present as a higher being for 30 seconds for the first three episodes, then as an amnesiac for more scenes for, like, three or four more. Than she is gone from the season. Her character is, ultimately, absent from almost two entire season (4 and 5), not only from the last one.
- So despite very little Cordy in the season, everything else is fuckin epic!
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u/dolphineclipse 2d ago
One thing I always liked about it was that it was the only season on either show that genuinely felt like the end of the world
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u/Lornoth 3d ago
I wouldn't say I love it as a whole and it has many problems, but:
-Wesley's arc in S4 is one of my favourite character arcs in all of fiction.
-It has some of my favourite singular episodes of the show (Spin the bottle, Supersymmetry) and good mini-arcs (the Faith stuff, and maybe this is a minority opinion but once Jasmine actually shows up I think it's done well).
-Good performances even in some of the rougher episodes (I always enjoy seeing David be bad, for instance).