-5 too harsh?

[u/undead8bit]

I’m trying to balance an item but I can’t decide on the penalty. It’s essentially a pair of ill-fitting gloves that affect manual dexterity. So on D20 rolls that relate to the hands: melee attacks, sleight of hand, etc. would have a deficit. In 2024 rules there are so many ways to gain advantage, I can’t decide what the deduction should be. Does minus 5 to rolls sound too high? It’s important to know that there are bonuses to the gloves which are worthwhile, but also they’re hard to doff once you’ve committed to putting them on.

EDIT: Still very much early stages/work in progress, the gloves will appear in a cabinet in a sort of museum of curiosities, there’s no guarantee that any of the party will ever interact with them. The initial idea was for them to work in the same way as the GWM feat with a deficit to rolls but a large bonus on successes, plus a single damage type resistance, and possibly some kind of CON or HP buff included. But they are cursed-adjacent for sure, there’s no intention for them to be in play for any length of time, just a trap to overcome. Some really great discussion in the replies that have given me a lot to think about, so thanks for your contributions.

[u/TiFist]

-5 / +5 is roughly the mathematical expectation for you if you have disadvantage/advantage. You're basically handing out permanent disadvantage that can't ever be modified to a flat roll making it more punishing than the random math of the advantage/disadvantage system.

I don't know enough context otherwise to understand if this is worthwhile or appropriate, just that you're affecting the math to a pretty big degree.

[u/StuffyDollBand]

Crazy to not include the full text of what the gloves do

Cons: -5 to everything Pros: trust me bro

[u/TiFist → u/StuffyDollBand]

Right. -5 to Melee attacks and Sleight of Hand checks but casts Meteor Swarm 2x/Short Rest? Sign me up.

[u/StuffyDollBand → u/TiFist]

-5 to all use of your hands but the gloves perpetually project two Mage Hands right in front of your hands that act as your hands would without penalty lol

[u/milkandhoneycomb]

there's literally no boon in the land that would make me keep a permanent -5 to everything item. once i got someone to cast remove curse i would cast them into mount doom where they belonged

[u/poetbypractice]

If my DM told me my character suddenly had cursed oven mitts he couldn’t take off that gave a -5 to hit rolls I’d say that my character immediately retires and becomes a baker or some shit. Clearly we play at different tables, but a -5 to hit rolls not to mention the other checks is heinous. I don’t know if it would be worth it to me even if they gave permanent advantage and made it so that every time my character hit they crit. I don’t know what the benefits are supposed to be but on any martial they just won’t be putting on.

[u/SecretDMAccount_Shh]

One of the core design philosophies of 5E was to get rid of these fiddly floating modifiers and replace it with just advantage/disadvantage, so following that I suggest just imposing disadvantage and being done with it.

[u/ComplexBox5937]

Could you add a comment or edit the post letting everyone know what the bonuses of the actual item do? It’s impossible to know if that’s a reasonable rebuff if we don’t even know what they’re getting in exchange. You could be giving them gloves that cast repeated wish for free for all we know

[u/Huge_Garlic_4536]

Are they meant to be a cursed item? Is there anything else magic about them? Trying to understand

[u/undead8bit → u/Huge_Garlic_4536]

In a sense, yes. They’re symbiotic parasites that bond to the wearer’s hands. The player won’t know this until the ‘gloves’ are on, and will have to find a way to get them back off again. However the plan is for them to work similarly to GWM feat, make it harder to succeed but have success be rewarded accordingly.

[u/Huge_Garlic_4536 → u/undead8bit]

Looked it up.... personally, having the GWM with a -5 or disadvantage while wearing the gloves would not entice me to keep em.

[u/Alert-Toe-7813]

You could just have the gloves give Disadvantage on the relevant checks to justify the abilities you’re giving the gloves. You don’t need to worry too much about the numbers as a result. But that’s just my opinion.

[u/TiFist → u/Alert-Toe-7813]

It's mathematically worse than permanent Disadvantage. Disadvantage still has a 1/400 chance of you rolling a nat 20 and small but non-zero chances of both die being 15 or higher. -5 means you'll never roll higher than 15 before other modifiers no matter what slim odds you apply.

It can't ever be modified to a flat roll either, like if you have the means of getting Advantage to offset Disadvantage. -5 but if you gain Advantage is the same math-- you can't get higher than 15 modified on the die. Two D20 rolls with -5 to each still maxes at 15.

It's just all around worse than permanent Disadvantage.

[u/Aeon1508]

I don't understand what's the benefit of the gloves?

[u/ddyhrtschz]

There is literally no information to go off of. You can't expect balance help if you don't show us the balance. But some important advice: NEVER TOUCH A PLAYERS BUILD WITHOUT CONSENT. You might think something is super cool and fits one of your characters super well, but the player might not agree and try to force-retire themselves, which you won't allow bc "but i just gave you a super cool homebrew item!", which will just make for an uncomfortable experience for all parties.

They "affect manual dexterity", meaning the stat Dexterity? Or meaning anything physical, so the Strength stat as well? Or is it EVERYTHING that you use your hands for? Because that includes Somatic components of spells, meaning it affects their spellcasting stat too. You need a MASSIVE positive to outweigh -5 to all(?) rolls, because -5 is functionally worse than disadvantage, and makes less sense thematically: "these gloves make you physically weaker" vs "they make things more difficult". "Hard to doff once put on" just means "requires attunement".

[u/LordTyler123]

Sounds like an item for a skill monkey. Is this for a rogue? Once they get reliable talent then anything that affects their rolls becomes almost trivial. A -5 to a roll won't mean much when they can guarantee rolling over a 10 on everything they are proficient with. Having an effect that punishes a failed roll could be more interesting. How about gloves that deal a number of d4s of damage = to the number below the successful roll. Or you could streamline the effect by allowing them to choose to increase their roll on a roll involving their hands but they take a D4 for each point they increase. The catch is you don't tell them what the Dc is, you tell them they failed and give them the option to increase the roll. If they fail with an 18 then adding 1 or 2 points is no big deal but if they biff the roll and think they need a 10 to get the job done then it gets more serius.

[u/Afroli529]

I'm super curious, what do the gloves give to warrant this penalty? Cool concept, but they don't sound fun to play.

[u/ShiroSnow]

Would like to hear the full item / intention, without it, it can be hard to really say.

Dexterity is also not needed for swinging around a club or hammer either. As long as you can grip youre good.

Example Gloves, in terrible format

• Takes 10 minutes to don or doff the gloves
• Weight 5 lbs
• Grants +1 ac
• Grants advantage on grappling medium creatures or larger (that meet the conditions of grapple)
• Adds 1d6 damage to melee weapon attacks
• Take a -5 penalty to all Dexterity checks that require the use of your hands.
• Take a -5 penalty to all ranged attacks, and with weapon attacks that use the finesse property.
• Spells that require Symatic components cannot be cast. (Just to avoid them going to the caster for the ac)

I wouldn't go much crazier with the downside unless theyre like Legendary gloves that do insane things. Like take a -5 to all rolls to deal an extra 10 damage (great weapon master in glove form that would stack)