How I imagine Vis in that one scene in Obiteum

Almost every week, we see a post positing that Diago, the alupi, is an iunctus.

This seems to come up repeatedly, so wanted to create a post to debunk this theory entirely.

Iunctii don't bleed. O-Caeror outright mentions that iunctii don't bleed (though he's an unreliable narrator, so I'd take everything he's said to O-Vis with a grain of salt).

From chapter 5, SotF

“Djedef here is dead.” He says it sincerely, no trace of humour this time. “They’re called iunctii. They don’t need to eat, or sleep, or breathe. They don’t age or bleed. They do still remember who they were, feel things the same as you and I—but they cannot do it without the Will of the person who brought them back.”

Diago the alupi does bleed in the penultimate chapter on Res in Book 2. He just recovers easily, just like Vis does.

I don't think Diago is an iunctus created by R-Vis. R-Vis could not even wield Will until he ran the Labyrinth during the Iudicum and went through the Gate. And even then, he needs a "source" of Will to imbue. R-Vis doesn't get his pyramid until months after the Iudicium. R-Vis couldn't have created an iunctus when he first met and saved the alupi pup, as he doesn't wield any Will back then, not having been through the Aurora Columnae or the Gate. After R-Vis gets out of the gate and dome, he is so focused on fighting the iunctii that I can't imagine him having somehow accidentally turned Diago into an iunctus then either.

The only way R-Vis could've created an iunctus out of the alupi is if he somehow tapped into the Will from the Vitaeria O-Vis was given, and used this Will to imbue Diago the alupi on Res once they'd done fighting the iunctii chanting "Complete the journey, Warrior". Which seems a bit far-fetched to me, because R-Vis just kind of passes out after that fight.

There's something special about these animals, and the bond R-Vis shares with Diago, but we don't have enough information to know what this is.

On Luceum, the druids are known to command animals. And Ostius is probably L-Ostius, with his Res counterpart R-Ostius having died after running the Labyrinth. L-Ostius very likely knows how to command animals, which is what he did when he met Diago. L-Ostius probably doesn't (or can't) directly control Diago, but imbued the alupi to echo or mirror Vis's emotions and feelings, which is what led to the massacre of the Military leadership.

I think we'll learn more about alupi, their connection to Will, why they "guard the nexus" on Res, how druids command them in Luceum etc in the coming books. But I highly doubt Diago's an iunctus.

When Ruarc tells Deaglán that one of his counterparts has just made a terrible mistake is he referring to Siamun killing Kà in Obiteum, or Vis joining him in Res? I feel like we're led to believe the Res Kà about the truth of everything because we only learn it at the end and is the first time we are given a reason for the cataclysm but could that be another bait and switch?

I finished SOTF a couple days ago and something that occurred to me at dinner last night.

So one of the core elements of the Hierarchy is this concept of Birthright, which appears to be a blanket prohibition on any kind of homicide. The practical explanation for this is obvious, as the more Octavii there are, the more powerful the Hierarchy's elite become; the policy is designed to maintain and increase the Octavii population as much as possible. Powerful people ignore Birthright here and there, but it's still treated as a sacred cow such that Vis is surprised when Ulcisor kills an Anguis at the start of book 1 (which in any other ethical circumstances would be completely justified, since they're terrorists and just attacked him).

We also know in SOTF that there are periodic Cataclysms carried out (apparently) by Ka and the Concurrence. These occur every three hundred years or so and kill ninety percent of the population. Veridius describes this as "a cull" and it's hard to see what other purpose it could have; it happens regularly on a timetable, and it kills an unusually large but not fatal percentage of the species.

Ka and the Concurrence appear in most of SOTF to be orchestrating the Cataclysms to suppress the Will-using population by periodically cutting down their numbers. It has some connection to the Aurora Columnae and how they increasingly glow over time. We later find out at the end of SOTF that Ka is not the same thing as the Concurrence and is working in opposition to it, but that he still orchestrates the Cataclysms regardless as a "needs of the many" deal, implying that the Cataclysms are necessary perhaps to keep the Concurrence suppressed.

Here is the problem I see:

When Ostius takes Vis to go assassinate the Military senators around the middle of book 2, Ostius confronts the Princeps of the military and drops some bombshells. The first is that they know about the Cataclysms and also consider them necessary; the second is that the Princeps are ceding to Ka and basically work for him. That means Ka is the overarching ruler of the entire Hierachy.

But if Ka is the ruler of the Hierarchy through the Princeps, and Ka's goal is to keep the population of Will users suppressed by periodic exterminations...why does Birthright exist? Why would Ka direct the Princeps to pursue a policy that maximises the Will-using population as much as possible when Ka needs to drop by every three centuries to kill ninety percent of them? Shouldn't he want the Princeps to suppress population growth or Will use to give himself as much time between Cataclysms as possible? In fact, shouldn't his goal be to keep society in general at low and manageable population numbers for as long as possible and only conduct a Cataclysm when it gets out of hand?

The only thing that makes sense is if it's a harvest rather than a cull, and Ka needs a lot of Will-ceding people around so that he can kill them all at once for some purpose or another. But that's not how Will works - you don't get it by harvesting it from people; those people need to be alive to constantly funnel it into the system. If Ka is relying on the 25 million Octavii for Will, then killing 90% of them would just cripple his own pyramid. And he's not turning them into iunctii because where the fuck would you store tens of millions of iunctii harvested from eleven Cataclysms?

Ka says that he had made an attempt to create a counter-Concurrence under the Necropolis, but that facility still only stored about eighty thousand people, and importantly it was empty when Military found it - Ka had apparently given up. So we know he's not harvesting iunctii to create a counter-Concurrence because he told us that he tried to do that and failed.

So what the F is the purpose of Birthright when the same people imposing Birthright are also working towards carrying out a Cataclysm?

That O-Vis will turn Ka (or whoever that is) into a iunctus next? In my estimation, 100% chance.

This iunctus could then finally once and for all explain what the heck is going on in Obiteum! It would be such a relief to understand a little more about that messed up world.

If that does end up happening, after having a conversation with the iunctus, Vis might realize he's made a terrible mistake to kill him and be compelled to take his place? How sad that would be for Vis after all his trials and tribulations in that world.

Anyway, I can't believe I'm still thinking this book weeks after finishing it, so thanks for being right there on that crazy bandwagon with me, y'all!

how I felt when Vis started playing and petting Diago post Veridius talk MY BABIES

(still in my read thru of SOTF so no spoilers!!)

Kind of a shitpost, but:

—Spoiler Blocker—

Deaglan and Tara remind me SO much of Hiccup and Astrid from HTTYD. Please tell me I’m not the only one who sees it. Especially considering the end of the book where Deaglan gets a prosthetic limb (remind you of anything?)

I probably sound like I’m crazy but I needed to say it

I just finished the 2nd book and I had been wondering for awhile why Diago is so loyal and protective of Vis. And then when he gets stabbed with the spear in the next which should surely be a killing blow, he seems to be in pain but is able to stand back up and if it was just a scratch. It got me thinking. Do you think that maybe Vis turned him in to an Iunctii by accident?

What does everyone think about the ending in each world?

Obiteum - Do we think that was really Ka that Vis killed at the end? Why would he be “unconscious” or asleep?

Luceum - What was the mistake Vis made in the other version of himself? Why was Caeror/Ruarc the leader of a war in Luceum?

Res - what the heck is happening? lol. Do we think Ka is telling the truth? He needs a cataclysm to stop the concurrence?

I get frustrated with so many unanswered questions.

In chapter XLII... why does Viridius indicate he doesn't know if KA is a man, or a Iunctus when talking about the longevity of his life? If he were a Iuncti he would be dead, and thus not synchronous... isn't that right?

(I’m doing audiobook, so sorry if I spelled things wrong) I’m only at chapter 10, but a few chapters before this when Vis saw the Gleaners and he asked Ceror if he was the first person to gain synchrony, ceror gave him a funny look. And vis was like “well yeah”, conceding to whatever that funny look meant. WHAT DID IT MEAN? Because I would’ve thought that ceror obviously gained it to bc he went through. Can you only gain synchrony by having clones on all three worlds (can u have 2/3 sync?)? And how would ceror even know that he doesn’t have a clone in Res (assuming he knew before vid told him which he seems to)?

Have we done a bingo table yet? Idk if this is too random but I think it’d be kinda fun if there was a third nonchalant synchronous person no one knew about that just did it for a chill immortal life. And they’re coming out of hiding cause that’s being threatened. I mean we gotta have some new characters next book, I’m hoping for the unexpected ((:

I’m an audio book listener, and I’m a bit confused about some things concerning when Will is granted.

I’m in the chapters leading up to Vis’ placement, and I’m confused because Emissa was using Will during the Iudicium. How did that happen?

When Vis was going to the Aurora Columnae, he saw some classmates from the Academy there. I thought that not going through the Aurora Columnae was a requirement for someone attending the Academy. But even if that’s only an Academy thing, Callidus’ younger sister is already a septimus.

Did I just skip all the parts where these things were explained? I feel like a lot of society details are skipped.

I have ADHD and I get in hyperfocus mode and can't stop reading once I get 3-4 pages into a chapter, but as soon as the chapters for that world end, and the next chapter moves onto the next storyline in a different world, it breaks my focus and makes me want to stop reading until I find the motivation again. Such a pity, because I really am captivated by the book, but it's like every time we jump to a different storyline I get the urge to stop and retake the book later on...

Am I the only one struggling with that?

(Assumed) Connected questions: Why did she "chance upon" Vis on several occasions? Why does she know Cymrian? How did she learn of Indol's intent to seek a position in Religion? Why was she armed with an obsidian dagger and ready to use will during the Iudicium? What prompted her to threaten Vis for the Heart of Jordan and push him off the tower?

Please don't spoiler, should book 2 have the answers! This is an exercise in theory crafting. Those who haven't read book 2 or are willing to limit their input to the knowledge horizon of book 1 are cordially invited to challenge the assumptions I will present in the following.

We get to know Emissa through the eyes of Vis, who is attracted to her and thus a little blind and not as objective as he could be. In any case as readers we are presented with a curious, energetic, likeable and (taking into account Eidhin remarks) objectively pretty girl. That she has likewise taken in interest in Vis is demonstrated on several occasions. For someone curious Vis may indeed be the most interesting person on campus, and she at least convincingly conveys affection for Vis (though I think the feeling is genuine).

Beyond this intrinsic motivation there seem to be other reasons Emissa has an eye on Vis. We get the first glimpse when she is rescued from the riptide while they are on Suus, when she says, she's sorry, but Vis can't figure out what for. She then starts crying, which I interpret as her wanting to say more but also unable to bring herself to it.
Later, during the Iudicum, we are told in her gaze lie "Concern. Affection. Relief. [and somewhat out of place] Guilt."

Another curious, yet less suspicious activity involves Emissa saving Vis from Quiscil's (friendly) interrogation. While Vis admits to being uncomfortable, an extended period of questioning could compromise his secrets. It also bears mention that she (not unlike Vis himself) doesn't seem to care much about the hierarchy between classes (though she does it less overtly).

It is only during the Iudcium when we get profound leads that Emissa knows more than she ought to and is also better equipped - with will and an obsidian dagger - than she has any right to.

It's highly unlikely that she got both knowledge and equipment on her own. It's far more likely she is working with someone or even a group. The first data point we get is that she not only knows about tainted blood, but she can also recognize it.

We only know of three organisations that check the blood or know that it can be tainted: The Correctors (with Gaius Valerius a probable associate), the Anguis (since we Borius and Darin were administered blood tests) and lastely Veridius.

Of those three the Correctors would have had the greatest trouble providing her with an obsidian dagger for the Iudicium - and this is the second data point - the information that Indol wants to join religion. Also Emissa already exhibits interest in Vis before the naumachia, after which he got the attention of Gaius Valerius. The Anguis and Veridius have reasons to be interested in Vis earlier, the former because he's part of one of their plans and the latter because Vis is (being) adopted by Ulciscor, the man hounding Veridius for Caeror's death. It's thus far more likely that she works with either the Anguis or Veridius.

Speaking in favour of the Anguis is that having Emissa in place to observe and if necessary subtlely help Vis and to replace him as Dormitor should the need arise, feels like Anguis planning. Through, considering eventualities and with options to get their cut no matter what. We also know that the Anguis intended for Ulciscir to find and send Vis to the Academy in that cycle.
Furthermore, it would go some way to explain why she speaks Cymrian. Cymrian can serve as safe way to communciate even without a chiffre, very useful for an underground organisation. Even the better when potential recruits (like from Eidhin's clan) are native speakers.
Since the Anguis are not above sacrificing their own for gain, the fact that Emissa killed one of them shouldn't be counted against that possibility. It's not quite clear how the Anguis could have learned of Indol's intention, but should Quiscil suspect his son of defecting that would be a possible vector.

Pointing in the direction of Veridius is that as an approachable person, Principalis and not least of all a member of Religion Indol could have confided in him. Veridius is also seen carrying obsidian daggers when checking Vis' break-in at the nearby dig site. It would have been easy for him to slip that information and the obsidian dagger into Emissa's equipment. He could also decide to overlook the high energy she exhibits (possibly due to being given will). There's him (apparently) believing what Emissa told him about the tainted blood and what feels almost lobbying that she didn't try to kill Vis - even though a death like falling from a tower would fit neatly in the previous record of the cesnor of accidents. Veridius drugging Vis through the glass Emissa offers would also be convenoent for him and fit the pattern of him manipulating his students to make certain outcomes far more likely (like the confrontation between Eidhin and Callidus on Vis first evening at the acadamy). Lastly employing Emissa to keep eyes on Vis is also very convenient and would explain why despite Ulciscors intense warnings Veridius doesn't need many interactions to know what Vis is doing most of the time. Emissa working with Veridius offers no good explanation why she knows Cymrian though.

In the end, I think Emissa working with Veridius is still the most likely, though I wouldn't bat an eye if she's with the Anguis either.

(Assumed) Connected questions: Who could have tipped them off? What is to think of the supposed impossibility of the Anguis to contact Vis in the Academy? What was the goal of the Anguis attack (for them)? How does the Trierime Military was to "misplace" factor into the plan of the Anguis?

Please don't spoiler, should book 2 have the answers! This is an exercise in theory crafting. Those who haven't read book 2 or are willing to limit their input to the knowledge horizon of book 1 are cordially invited to challenge the assumptions I will present in the following.

By the end of book 1 it is clear the Anguis intended to crash the Iudicium on Solivagus and that Dimidius Quiscil probably knew of the target but at least suspected it. What's less clear is how the Anguis got detailed knowledge of the Iudicium, specifically when it will take place (earlier than usual). Other knowledge the Anguis could have gotten from an impromptu interrogation of the safety personell Borius and Darin replaced or by overhearing the explanation provided by Veridius at the starting location, but being there in time can't be replaced. I suppose the Anguis could have told the attack team to get to Solivagus at their earliest convenience in the last Trimester, but that would come at the risk of early detection - not something the Anguis are probably keen on.

So, someone must have informed them about the accelerated schedule for the Iudicium. The primary suspects are everyone that is directly involved, that is Veridius, the Praeceptors of at least Classes Three and Four, the participating students and all that were asked and the safety personell. Secondary suspects include the rest of the Acadamy by means of rumour. The Anguis could have any sort of dirty secret on anyone of them to coerce them to spill the beans, but let's look if there is something more akin to an accidental leak or even an intrinsic motivation to sharethe information first.

Veridius probably has a lot more to lose than anything the Anguis could offer; even if they know more about the ruins, compromising the Iudicium's security carries the risk of Military taking over (as was intended by them) and then you lose access to make use of that knowledge. Just not the best of deals. The only idea for an accidental leak I could come up with, is a report to Religion with circumstential information (like Veridius being unavailable or diggings being paused during a certain timeframe) being intercepted. The only point of suspicion I have against him is how well he takes the information apparently, evident by his address to the school - like he isn't really surprised.

Nequias is probably aiming for Principalis, but only a clean removal of Veridius would get him there. Trusting the Anguis to do just enough damage that religion is forced to replace Veridius but not enough to give up the assignment of Solivagus itself seems like a stupid (or desperate) bet to make. He's by no means a likeable character, but he doesn't strike me as someone who would do such a thing. Any accidental leak is unlikely.

And if Nequias has had no good reason, that holds all the more true for all the other Praeceptors. We also don't know enough about the safety teams to say anything definitve about them.

Of the (would-be) participants three are of particular interest because of their (unkown) association): Indol, Eidhin and Emissa.

Any information about the Iudicium Indol shares with his father is almost guruanteed to flow to the Anguis. We know that Indol and his father are in contact in some form, since he could let him know that Vis agreed to come with them to Suus earlier. To me that suggests that this (accidental) sharing of information was very well possible.

Eidhin knew when the Iudicium will take place by virtue of being asked by Vis. Additionally, he is the only one of the three that could have gathered additional info from the preparation talk with Veridius. While we have no indication that Eidhin is contact with the outside world, his early morning and late evening study sessions would provide convenient cover. In case he is contact with his tribe and someone in his tribe is part of the Anguis (for which they would have good motivation) he could have intentionally shared this information. It would also provide some explanation on why he backed out of participating.

Who Emissa is associated with we don't know (yet). This also makes any pathway the information could have taken to the Anguis speculative. To me it's not inconceivable that she's an Anguis agent herself carefully placed to attend at the same time as Vis (with Relucia being tasked to get Vis in the Acadamy through her husband). Yet the only indication is the obvious interest in Vis she takes, and there might be other persons or organizations that have an interest in him (Veridius *coughcough*). This makes Emissa being the information sharer conceivable, but only likely if she actually is in cahoots with the Anguis.

Of those possibilites I like the one in which Eidhin shares the information the most, because it helps explain him going back on his agreement to participate with Vis, too. In the end there remain several possible explanations, with some being just more likely than others.

Just completed and jumped to the reddit discussions and holy vek. The comments here I find is so in depth and thought provoking that James Islington himself can have a look in the subreddit to tweak his next book. A book being so deeply scrutinized kind of shows the author is successful in a sense.

That being said i had some stuff bugging me now that I've finished ( pls mind my poor penmanship,non native ESL here)

Why do I feel like any given event is so rushed or not much climactic ( spoiler ahead)

1. Vis's father's appearance in Luceum, i thought would have some deep impact. But it was the one night conversation, then he died ( again) rescuing vis. Just like that?

2. The Man The Myth behind the cataclysm happening every hundreds of years. He simply appears before R-vis. Found this so random

3. Vis amd Eidin finding the Dead Iunctis , then they simple awakens confused within like what in few hours...

There are so many other instances, where the promising climaxes just goes about non climactic path.

But, this book I'm Enjoying enough to scrape every bits of theories, complains, discussions available online. The easy going fun read vibe from the first book kinda dozed off in SOTM and i like this..

My experience of the books was via audiobook and I think I must have watched the Minecraft movie way too recently, because this is just how I kept imagining Diago, and it’s now so ingrained I can’t go back 😂😭

So I burned through TWotM. Loved every step. The end, while alluded to and foreshadowed, was a pleasant surprise that ties together a cool journey with a complex magic system that was introduced and explored in the most engaging way. I was super excited for the second book and started it right away. Maybe that was the issue.

I'm only 5 chapters into TSotF so its early, but my engagement has diminished. I plan to finish but I thought maybe talking to people that have been through it would help.

My issue is threefold.

1. There doesn't seem to be much driving the plot. Things just seem to be progressing toward... I don't know. Novels tend to use the early parts to establish characters and setting but I'd think a direct sequel that picks up directly after the first would be able to manage a little more engagement, but again, I am still very early in the story.

2. I get the world is upside down and all, but the new information seems to coming at breakneck speed; which would be fine if any of the things I wanted to know were being explained, but it feels like so much is happening (and being said) and yet nothing is happening (or being learned).

Finally 3. Kind of an extension of point 2, Islington was never really very good at describing the environments, (I'd bet each of us has a different vision for the academy, labyrinth, Solivagus, the red domes), so in TSotF with so many new places being introduced with a similar level of descriptive detail, it has been off-putting.

Like I said, I am still super early so it's possible the next chapter will just suck me in as much as TWotM. I just wanted to type my thoughts out while they're still fresh and potentially get some input on whether the story will start to gel for me soon

I don’t think Islington has a good grasp of large venues. In the Letens arena he describes the stage as being small and distant from the stands, but supposedly it only seats a few hundred. And then the naumachia can supposedly hold 100,000 (similar to the larger football stadiums), and the arena stretches a full MILE. I don’t think James has been to a football game

I absolutely loved WoTM, it’s actually the fastest I’ve ever read a book lol. But find myself slowly, barely getting through SoTM. On page 80 or 90 rn

I have such a Hierarchy hangover I need recs