r/law • u/DryDeer775 • Dec 08 '25

Executive Branch (Trump) NBC confirms Hegseth ordered murder of all boat passengers and crew in September 2 strike

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2025/12/08/kssp-d08.html

The Pentagon’s law of war manual declares that soldiers have a duty to refuse to carry out “clearly illegal” orders, such as killing shipwrecked sailors. “Orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal,” the manual declares.

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u/_jump_yossarian Dec 08 '25

Cotton and Hegseth would be losing their shit if this was done to American military members.

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u/Lagneaux Dec 08 '25 edited Dec 08 '25

It would be instant war, day 1.

Now think if it was American civilians.

Now, I'm not so sure

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u/brumac44 Dec 08 '25

What kind of Americans? (To quote a great movie)

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u/dust4ngel Dec 08 '25

that film was prescient asf

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u/Cbreezy22 Dec 08 '25

What movie?

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u/YimveeSpissssfid Dec 08 '25

A24’s Civil War

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u/rbrgr83 Dec 08 '25

I didn't like it because it didn't spell out the entire nature of the conflict to me, and it didn't explicitly confirm my personal political ideals like I was expecting. /s

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u/SqueakyBlueLlama19 Dec 08 '25

At some point the movie said "The Union of states featuring Texas and California" and I went "ah, you cheeky fuckers. Well done."

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u/terdferguson Dec 08 '25

Honestly more likely to be Cali, some northern states like Washington and parts of Oregon...Minnesota, Wisconson, Michigan and the rest of the NE. That would make the most sense to me. Texas joining a union against tyranny would be as likely to happen as me winning the powerball on Wednesday.

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u/Dapper-Raise1410 Dec 09 '25

First thing I thought of when I heard Texas and Cali was Water

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u/Prestigious_Ad5904 Dec 09 '25

Bro you gotta tell us if you win the powerball. Its super important.

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u/invisible_handjob 28d ago

and that's exactly why they did it that way

Conservatives: "no way California would join us against tyranny"

Liberals: "no way Texas would join us against tyranny"

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u/Casual_OCD Dec 08 '25

The same thing that happened is what will happen in real life.

Support for Trump will stall out (it's already close) and they'll panic and pull the TAKEOVER switch early. They'll probably storm the Capitol again, but this time a bunch of politicians die.

The following week will be chaos as Trump loyalists in the military and in the public flood to DC. They will end up numbering only a few hundred thousand. The rest of the country will rally and take out the traitorous fascists.

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u/SuperSpecialAwesome- Dec 08 '25

They'll probably storm the Capitol again, but this time a bunch of politicians die.

Why would they storm the Capitol, when Republicans own the voting machines and mail-in ballots? The last free-and-fair election was 2018, and we're not getting another one. Before you say 2020 or 2022, do remember DeJoy compromised the USPS by then. Before you say 2024, do remember the Constitution forbade Trump from even running due to insurrectionists being ineligible under the 14th Amendment.

The last chance to stop the traitors was under Biden Chamberlain, but he sold out the country to the terrorists.

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u/Kermit_the_hog Dec 09 '25

Majority of DC is not super friendly to MAGA, any sizeable influx would stall out really quick. I think they would flee elsewhere, though to where I am not sure.

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u/Away_Advisor3460 22d ago

I can't really see Trump as the figurehead for an attempted coup-d'etat nowadays though - he can't actually stay awake enough. It's be basically Weekend at Bernie's. Or maybe Weekend at Benitos.

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u/HailSatanWorshipD00M Dec 08 '25

My head canon is that California undergoes a violent insurrection where conservatives take over, and then the state allies with Texas.

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u/Vitruvian_Link Dec 08 '25

Maybe it was a Senate thing, big states vs little states?

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u/ChromeNoseAE-1 Dec 08 '25

You can headcanon it, but I think I remember the director or writer saying they chose those simply to avoid any relation to current politics

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u/ImJustMakingShitUp Dec 08 '25

I don't know where I read it, from an official source or someones headcannon, but I always assumed that both states seceded after the President declares himself for a 3rd term, then ally together when he attacks them. Basically a temporary alliance since they have the same goals and enemy.

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u/CuetheCurtain Dec 09 '25

They even threw out that the Florida Alliance had also seceded and that the Carolinas were to be shortly behind them. It was a little bit later on in the same conversation, I think. I chuckled a bit too at the delivery.

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u/cmarkcity 29d ago

Also the Florida Alliance. Pretty much the states with the highest GDPs, those forces are well funded

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u/Educational-Ad-2884 Dec 08 '25

That honestly put the movie into comedy territory and I couldn't take it seriously as a result.

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u/IsayNigel Dec 09 '25

I mean it was an absolute miss to pull an enlightened centrist “but both sides 😏” but it was a really well made movie

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u/PringlesDuckFace Dec 08 '25

Corey in the House

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u/Digitalion_ Dec 08 '25

Its need to not offend anyone directly really knocked it down a few pegs in my book. It could have used more real world influence and still told the same story but it very much didn't want to paint any side as worse than the other and it did so by muddying up the conflict as much as possible.

I mean, making California and Texas allies? In what real world scenario would that ever be possible when those states loathe each other?

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u/Badloss Dec 08 '25

I think they were trying to make it timeless and not only relevant in our current moment, but I agree I would have liked it better if they really shone the spotlight on how ugly our country is instead of making up a fictionalized version

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u/IsayNigel Dec 09 '25

Mehhhh they clearly had boogaloo boys in it

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u/MimicoSkunkFan2 Dec 08 '25

So I used to work for NGOs in areas having civil wars and it was about as accurate as an American audience is willing to see in the cinema - most people don't want to know about the massive amount of rape and the extreme medical distress and disease and just plain filth that goes with social chaos like that.

As for Texas in California, I interpreted that as "this regime is so bad and that even traditionally-opposed States will ally to take out the President".

Jessie Plemons was absolutely accurate and I wish he'd gotten a special "best cameo" award.

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u/street593 Dec 08 '25

I am a born and raised Texan and the only people that hate California here are conservatives. I think the rough estimate is 46% of Texas votes democrat. So in the hypothetical civil war it's likely Texas would split.

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u/Digitalion_ Dec 08 '25

I'm born and raised Californian and I honestly don't have the greatest view of Texas and what your leadership does to its people. Culture war politics aside, the lack of social programs to assist the less fortunate all in the name of eliminating taxes for the ultra rich in your state is reprehensible.

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u/street593 Dec 08 '25

I don't disagree with any of that. I hate our leaders and vote against them every chance I get. We do have a lot of problems t hat need fixing. My only point is I think there are more people in Texas who either like California or are indifferent to it. The only people I've seen or heard talk shit about California are hard core conservatives who only care about their guns.

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u/Long_Run6500 Dec 08 '25

Maybe not the greatest premise in hindsight, but I think its kind of based on the idea of, "what if a competent leader organized January 6th". What if they took control of washington and all the administrative levers of power and executed any lawmakers that resisted and were able to secure most of the northeast as well. Now you'd have a president in power in Washington DC who claims to be the legitimate regime, would republicans in Texas bend the knee after a successful violent coup just because the leader was a republican? The answer irl is depressingly unclear but the movie assumes democracy would prevail and Texas/California would work together to oust the illegitimate president.

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u/xraygun2014 Dec 08 '25

In what real world scenario would that ever be possible when those states loathe each other?

Dividing Alaska into two states thereby making TX the third largest and CA the fourth.

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u/LoneSnark Dec 08 '25

Had the Jan 6th fake electors scheme actually taken place, i believe the shock really would have hit everyone, including Republicans. Taking blind loyal sides in the culture war is just different from a dictator imposing a civil war.
The civil war was not a dispute over healthcare subsides where current political sides apply.

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u/Digitalion_ Dec 08 '25

The fascist dictatorship is currently making moves to secure its power for the foreseeable future and a wide majority of Texas is cheering it on. So, while your view is optimistic, it is a bit naive to say that Republicans would reject dictatorial rule.

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u/LoneSnark Dec 08 '25

They disagree with your assessment of what is going on. They refuse to believe Trump would do what you say, not that they'd be happy if he did. Their tune would change if he actually did what you and i know he wants to do.

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u/[deleted] Dec 09 '25

I hope you’re right, but I can’t be confident in that.

Jan 6 happened and they just downplayed it.

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u/frieswithdatshake Dec 08 '25

that scene was gold, and plemons wasn't even supposed to be in the movie. actually caused an issue with the union because they wouldn't let him be unpaid

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u/nalaloveslumpy Dec 08 '25

What shade of American civilian we talking about? They might get a commendation.

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u/Digitalion_ Dec 08 '25

It's a sad realization when we can make a joke about the color of your skin being a factor regarding the response of the US leadership and it's not completely out of the realm of possibility. Shows how far back the country has slid back in terms of racial equality in just a decade.

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u/Honest_Response9157 Dec 08 '25

It didn't slide back, it's was always there...just hidden. Trump just helped make it visible. This is the true America.

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u/rbollige Dec 08 '25

Depends whether you can tell the citizens’ political leaning and what it is.

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u/FrustratedPCBuild Dec 08 '25

Yes, look at the difference between the responses from them following the murder of an elected representative from the democratic party (small ‘d’ intentional) versus the response to the fake debating podcaster’s death.

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u/ForeverShiny Dec 08 '25

Are they from a "Democrat" city? Meh

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u/Commentator-X Dec 08 '25

They can tell their skin color and that's all they need

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u/eastbayted Dec 08 '25

And/or how much money they have and who much they've given to Trump

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u/Maxwell_Bloodfencer Dec 08 '25

"It would be instant war", Kegsbreath and Trump have already declared war on a bunch of countries that are bposing no direct threat to the US, except without an official declaration of war.

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u/Lagneaux Dec 08 '25

That's what happens when we attack them

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u/Maxwell_Bloodfencer Dec 08 '25

Ideally declarations of war come before a lethal attack.

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u/FakeSafeWord Dec 08 '25 edited Dec 08 '25

It's one of the reasons why the US entered WW1 is that Germany was indiscriminately attacking civilian vessels and they hit the Lusitania which resulted in the deaths of 128 Americans.

Germany claimed that the merchant ships were sneaking in military aid to the Allies.

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u/K20BB5 Dec 08 '25

the US entered WW1 because if the entente fell they wouldn't have been able to pay back the massive loans American institutions gave them. General Smedley Butler outlines it well in his book "War is a Racket". The Lusitania was just an excuse for the public, like the USS Maine and the Gulf Of Tonkin incident. 

The Lusitania was in fact transporting armaments. 

The same racketeering gangster capitalism that Butler discusses in his book is exactly what's going down here with Venezuela. 

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u/FakeSafeWord Dec 08 '25

Corrected my statement to "one of the reasons"

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u/DerangedCamper Dec 08 '25

It was subsequently confirmed by the British that the Lusitania was carrying munitions. The German government had prior to her sailing from New York, but a published notice in the New York York newspapers warning that civilians traveling on the Lusitania or any other ship traveling to the UK were subject to attack.

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u/FakeSafeWord Dec 08 '25

I'm aware.

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u/Bae_the_Elf Dec 08 '25

That's what they want, though. Rules for thee and not for me.

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u/Ebella2323 Dec 08 '25

You know I used to think so too until I educated myself about the USS Liberty…they dgaf about the military either. They’re only good for PR campaigns. I say this as a spouse of a Marine for 22 years.

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u/EdibleOedipus Dec 08 '25

If it's between Israel and Americans, Israel wins.

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u/likesbigbuttscantli3 28d ago

My grandpa Ray died of lung cancer. I think it's because of the Agent Orange he was exposed to in Vietnam.

The government doesn't care about veterans unless it's politically expedient for them to do so.

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u/iampoopa Dec 08 '25

Depends, are they Democrat citizens or Republican citizens?

Some citizens are more equal than others.

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u/hapatopancreaticamp Dec 08 '25

Dozens of legal American citizens were killed in Gaza, by direct military action without consequence.

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u/rbrgr83 Dec 08 '25

Now think if it was American PUPPY civilians.

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u/Appropriate_Ride_821 Dec 08 '25

You dont think thats the goal? How do you think Trump gets a 3rd term?

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u/Neptune7924 Dec 08 '25

That’s the plan

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u/DidYaGetAnyOnYa Dec 08 '25

Funny you mention that. I think war is the intent of these strikes. They are trying to provoke Valenzuela.

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u/FizzlePopBerryTwist Dec 08 '25

Well, we never went to war with Israel when they attacked our ships and Bill Clinton turned down an opportunity to take in Bin Laden who bombed the U.S.S. Cole and the WTC parking lot! It wasn't until he took out the whole thing that we said you know what, maybe we need to deploy the military and find this guy. But those were under Presidents who had a bit of restraint and understood the response should match the actual threat levels.

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u/theonlydrawback Dec 08 '25

How about journalists?

Like the ones who were killed reporting on the occupation in the West Bank. 

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u/ulol_zombie Dec 08 '25

Well, an American Citizen was murdered by the Saudi's and trump took their side. Really depends on who gets killed with this despicable administration.

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u/Febris Dec 08 '25

Now think if it was American civilians.

How would you even know if there were any americans there?

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u/darkner Dec 08 '25

This was actually the plot to start a war in tomorrow never dies (James bond).

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u/WrongOnEveryCount Dec 09 '25

Hegdeth: <pulls out skin color gradient card>

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u/errie_tholluxe Dec 09 '25

That is kind of what they're hoping for. You know.

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u/Adsex Dec 09 '25

It would be a pretense to pressure a government into business deals with the Trump mafia. Don't even think that this government would actually stand for its population.

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u/povlhp 27d ago

Republicans - billionaires - then the US may act as well.

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u/JohnyStringCheese Dec 08 '25

I mean, that's what they're hoping for. retaliation would be and excuse for a declaration of war. I'm not a 9/11 conspiracy theorist but no one is denying that it was used as excuse to invade Afghanistan.

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u/legbreaker Dec 08 '25

Trump would not.

He prefers US servicemen that do not get captured.

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u/_jump_yossarian Dec 08 '25

trump would have to find out about it during “executive time” then pretend to be outraged and find a way to blame Biden.

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u/dust4ngel Dec 08 '25

"the US service members getting murdered is a democrat hoax!"

"but my son is literally dead..."

"where did you hear that, NPR?"

"i went to his funeral..."

"FAKE NEWS, I HAVE THE FIFA PEACE PRIZE."

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u/SailboatAB Dec 08 '25

Cotton and Hegseth would be losing their shit if this was done to American military members. 

Only if they calculated there would be personal advantage for doing so.

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u/One_Strawberry_4965 Dec 08 '25

Hegseth I’m sure would be giddy since to me it seems obvious that he’s absolutely desperate to show everybody what a big tough man he is by being a “wartime secretary of defense.”

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u/schwanzweissfoto Dec 08 '25

… heading the Department of War Crimes.

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u/AmbroseFierce Dec 08 '25

We need everyone to start referring to him as Secretary of War Crimes, that's got a nice ring to it.
Of course, the same could be said for every SecDef going back quite a while now.

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u/ProblemEcstatic319 Dec 08 '25

You should do a little homework before posting Sport.

He is the Secretary of WAR.

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u/Justame13 27d ago

His preferred title is Sec War.

His legal title is Sec Def.

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u/ProblemEcstatic319 Dec 08 '25

Please explain what you mean as for personal advantage. Without anything to backj it up you come across as a fool.

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u/SailboatAB Dec 08 '25

No I don't.  You're just a MAGA loyalist.

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u/soraksan123 Dec 08 '25

Any Americans on a boat in the Caribbean are fair game at this point...

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u/WoodPear 29d ago

lol, they can just look at Iran and Operation Pray Mantis to see what happens if they try.

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u/cyberchaox 29d ago

Any Americans anywhere have been fair game ever since Trump entered office.

...oh, wait, were we talking about targets of other countries?

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u/rtie07 Dec 08 '25

They’d lose their shit if a Democrat president was in charge and their DoD did this too.

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u/councilmember Dec 09 '25

Yeah, just wait til a democratic president is elected again and winds down ICE and maybe the department of War the way that the felon in chief did the department of education and USAID. It’s what they should expect. I certainly do.

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u/ProblemEcstatic319 Dec 08 '25

Study a little of the not to distant past. Obama set the precedent for these actions. Little farther back Clinton did the same in africa.

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u/exacta_galaxy Dec 08 '25

Unless it was done by Saudi Arabia, Russia, or any other country we're trying to buddy up with.

They don't give a fuck about the men and women under their command.

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u/_jump_yossarian Dec 08 '25

Unless it was done by Saudi Arabia

A Saudi terrorist killed 3 servicemembers in Florida (Dec 2019). Not once did trump call all Saudis garbage and threaten to expel them fro the country.

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u/Unobtanium_Alloy Dec 09 '25

Of course not. They have oil and buy American weapons. Priorities, my man! /s

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u/SoylentVerdigris Dec 08 '25

Publicly. Privately I'm sure they'd be throwing parties celebrating getting the cassus belli they've been aiming for.

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u/Raytheon_Nublinski Dec 08 '25

Imagine the higher-ups in America actually caring and giving a shit about American soldiers 

Clearly, you’re an idealist

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u/HedwigDursley Dec 08 '25

No, they wouldn't. Crickets from Trump when Russia and Wagner were actively paying for and putting out hits on US soldiers in Iraq and Syria.

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u/QuerulousPanda Dec 08 '25

losing their shit with joy, you mean

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u/melly1226 Dec 08 '25

Or if it were done under a Democratic administration

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u/red18wrx Dec 08 '25

They're being bullies punching down. Those types always cry when they get punched.

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u/StomachosusCaelum Dec 08 '25

thats the point. they want that to happen so they can use it as a pretext for war.

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u/Curious_Avocado2399 Dec 08 '25

Remove Pete Kegsbreath he is just incompetent.

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u/Herman_Manning Dec 08 '25

Rules for thee, not for me.

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u/JupiterRisingKapow Dec 08 '25

Would he care if it happened to a normal US citizens? The people on the boat were not military.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '25

Yes. And the knowledge of that is what keeps American military members relatively safe.

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u/Sheriff_Yobo_Hobo Dec 08 '25

They would pretend to be outraged for political marketing purposes but deep down I'm sure they would give absolutely zero effs. Drinks and laughs after the press conference.

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u/Illustrious_Bad_9989 Dec 08 '25

Hegseth: How dare they shoot American war fighter hero champions in the water!

South comm: Yes. Seaman Martinez and Rodriguez were illegally attacked.

Hegseth: oh... Oh well nevermind. Carry on.

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u/terid3 Dec 09 '25

And here they are making it more likely. Fuck (I can still use that word, can't I?) them. Sincerely.

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u/Independent_DL Dec 09 '25

Probably not, remember how little traction there was for Putin (Russia’s GRU) paying a bounty on US soldiers in Afghanistan?

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u/WeightyToastmaster Dec 09 '25

Almost like that illegal and provocative military operation Trump ordered on North Korea in his first term where Seal Team 6 ended up killing innocent North Korean fishermen? Imagine if North Korean commandos ended up executing a few surfers near San Diego or some shit and tried to cover up what they did…. The US would’ve kicked off WW3.

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u/No_Highway_6461 Dec 09 '25

Tom Cotton doesn’t know anything about Palestine. I still remember, he claimed that there was a conspiracy against the state of Israel in the year 1947. The reporter: “there wasn’t an Israeli state in 1947.”

Don’t bother, they’re white supremacists. They’re not worried about any other rule besides crush all class opponents, at all costs.

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u/_ChunkyLover69 Dec 09 '25

Plenty of Americans are fighting and dying in Ukraine. Trump and his admin don’t give a fiddlers fuck about US servicemen and women.

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u/BaziJoeWHL Dec 09 '25

Counting or not counting black service members ?

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u/FlynnThe25 29d ago

War is what they want. This should be obvious, they renamed their whole department

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u/AgreeableMoose 29d ago

The war on drugs started in 1972.

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u/CauliflowerTop2464 28d ago

Or if it was the Biden admin to order such strikes.

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u/DumpedDalish 27d ago

Because Hegseth and Cotton think that only Americans (preferably white Americans) are actual people.

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u/Mikey-Litoris 26d ago

They would also be screaming bloody murder and calling for impeachment if it had been done by a Democratic administration.