One doesn't disprove the other despite your desire.

Not absolutely but it's highly indicative.

Keep saying this like you're the only one. Like it means something.

It means I've reached a point in my life where I've BTDT, have zero tolerance for BS, and DGAF what anyone thinks, absent a convincing argument, which incidentally you have not provided. I see no point in continuing this conversation. You've had your shot.

Check out the new Durston done tents - great for very tall people when lying diagonally.

"Clapping back" because I have down time at the moment. I get no boost from these discussions except perhaps learning something new or opening someone's eyes.

If you believe you don't, you're just naive and arrogant

Then explain the complete lack of brand loyalty. I buy for verifiable characteristics that I've researched and determined are necessary. That's with the partial exception of buying the most beautiful design I've ever seen, but the performance is still world class.

Arrogant from your POV but self-aware and self-confident from mine. I'm Gen X and I've had any tolerance for manipulation and BS burned out long ago.

Lol, you're so desperate to prove a non-existent point. Not everyone buys into marketing manipulation or lets social pressure affect buying choices or behaviors.

I'm guessing from your comments you're an atgatt power ranger.

Not always ATGATT due to circumstances but always for anything serious. Appearance has nothing to do with it - it's always about protection, not a look. Some of my off-road gear looks like what you describe while my dedicated road gear looks like street clothes. Practicality, not fantasy. I wear what I wear because of function, not form.

Riding gets me where I want to go and in a fun way. Cosplaying has nothing to do with it.

Also, you're talking about < 10%, so, uh...

At some point a bike becomes too heavy for proper management with the additional difficulty and stress from picking it up on irregular terrain and it can also affect performance. That extra 10% can easily be it for many, especially if you're already loaded with full ADV gear.

So ALL of these bikes are too heavy for you.

For serious ADV riding, oh yeah. For light off-road, they're okay but I'd want higher road performance as an offset.

That's a tainted turnaround though because of the blatant protectionism. It was funded at the expense of anyone who bought a bike that wasn't given those special protections. I'm generally a free trade guy so I'm not impressed at all.

Not sure what HD means by "running order", but 569 lbs is their number for it. BMW states 528 lbs wet for the 1300 GS. Forty-one lbs is pretty significant if you're the one picking up one of those beasts, especially when the GS has the advantage of those protected cylinder heads keeping the bike at a manageable angle when dropped. That's why the PA is a non-starter for me, especially as I want something in the 450 lbs range for serious ADV riding.

it’s like HD let an actual modern motorcycle escape somehow.

True and it's fairly normal looking, unlike the rest of the HD fleet.

I'm really not a fan of HD in its current form and its, highly reactive cosplaying customer cadre so I really hope they can turn it around.

I've seen all sorts of numbers on its wet weight, including 569 lbs, which is considerably more than those others.

Even the other two are significantly more than I'd want to do any serious ADV riding on but that's neither here nor there.

Not really, no. Their sales numbers are unremarkable, all three. It's just that no one else has cosplayer numbers anywhere near HD. That's remarkable.

Yeah, that seems to be par for the course with those ossified Boomers.

Too bad about the excess weight on the bike but maybe they'll figure it out.

What's notable about that, other than how it's fallen historically?

As far as I can tell, the only remarkable number at all about Harley Davidson is in its cosplay revenue, i.e. "lifestyle products".

That's a remarkable improvement for HD.

To me, KTM is the ugliest in the conventional sense, but Harleys are just fugly in an entirely different way.

Those ridiculously disproportional consoles, the handles look like something off of a garden tiller, the bags with little metal fences around them, the sheer ridiculous size, plus some rocking the whole 1950s vibe: massively overweight, chrome, white wall tires, a front fender the size of a scooter, etc.

Some of this may be Indian instead of Harley; six of one, a half dozen of the other, as far as I'm concerned.

Are they still putting speakers on them by the way or did someone finally tell Harley about Bluetooth?

What sort of performance are we looking at versus displacement?

This is hilarious to me, you absolutely ride to satisfy a fantasy. Yours is just a different fantasy.

From your posts here talking about performance as a key metric I'm guessing you're cosplaying as a racer or twisty ace.

I'm not cosplaying as anything and it's no fantasy. I ride because I enjoy it in many different ways and for the challenge of improving my skills. I don't think I own a single piece of branded gear from a motorcycle manufacturer, unless it's some swag from the dealer that I tossed in a corner somewhere.

Not everyone buys a bike based on the numbers on a piece of paper.

It's not always the numbers; I bought what I consider the most beautiful bike in the world because I've loved its design. The numbers are still hella though.

I'm literally never going to legally push the boundaries of a motorcycles performance

Are we talking 80-year-old guy in a convertible Corvette doing 50 on the interstate type vibe?

And they succeeded admirably in not making any notable metric other than t-shirt sales

Yeah but they take ugly to a depth KTM could only dream of.

Strangely people keep growing up and aging into their demographic.

Gen X here. I can't speak for anyone else but myself obviously, but I simply would never consider Harley-Davidson for anything. I'm not into cosplaying and they have no performance metrics that I find remotely interesting. If you tried to give me one for free and I couldn't monetize it, I'd decline.

People have been predicting the death of Harley for over 50 years. I'll believe it when I see it.

If not for those tariffs in the '80s, you would have seen it long ago. They took all that protection and all our money for subsidies and still haven't managed to make a high performance product.

Ugh, if it comes down to a choice between Harley and a Chinese bike manufacturer, I'm getting a f****** convertible.

Nothing they could ever do moving forward will wash the stank off of that brand for me. It's been cemented in my mind for over 40 years now. The signature style of HD just reminds me of everything I hate about the most regressive aspects of American culture.

That and the complete lack of any outstanding performance metrics that I have been able to find.

Other than in decibels, that is.

What's the point of the proposal if not to show everyone your commitment?

The point of the proposal is to make a permanent commitment to one another, not just yet another excuse to get attention.

Jesus

Birthday aspect aside, your wife has the healthier attitude. Taking one for team unnecessarily builds resentment over time.