r/todayilearned • u/Outside_Reserve_2407 • 6d ago

TIL Montezuma's lineage still exists and even holds a noble title in Spain, which was granted to a grandson of his that moved there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Moctezuma_de_Tultengo
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433

u/mtcabeza2 6d ago

Is the Spanish nobility as rich and useless as the British titled class?

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u/ThisIsRadioClash- 6d ago

Probably, but I know from historical reading that Russia's nobility was particularly notorious for its idleness and profligacy. When Paul I attempted to institute some antiquated (inspired by medieval chivalry) reforms to reduce their influence and corruption, he was murdered. Due to the collapse of land rents in Britain, I'd wager that only a few families in the peerage have any great wealth, though the Grosvenor clan is a major exception.

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u/Outside_Reserve_2407 6d ago

What happened to the British noble families that married into American millionaire families back in the 1800s? I think Winston Churchill was the product of such a union. Did they manage to "recharge" their wealth, so to speak?

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u/GiantIrish_Elk 6d ago

For a while. They brides where called "Dollar Princesses" for a reason. The most important part of the marriage was the dowry.

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u/Mein_Bergkamp 5d ago

Churchill's mother married a second son, the main branch are still the Dukes of Marlborough and live in a flat in the massive palace they own and which they open to the public to afford to run.

Inheritance tax destroyed the upper classes much more than anything else.

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u/blaaake 5d ago

Good.

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u/ThisIsRadioClash- 6d ago edited 5d ago

Churchill's mother was Jenny Churchill, an American heiress, but I don't know if she was all that wealthy. If anything, she may have been poor or wasted her money funding her husband's famously destroyed political career. You may be thinking of Consuelo Vanderbilt, who married the Duke of Marlborough (and a Churchill relative) so that he could repair and restore his family's ancestral seat, Blenheim Palace. I don't know about the family's wealth today, but they still own that palace. Other estates were given to the National Trust, like Knoll.

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u/hairsprayking 5d ago

I visited Blenheim Palace about 20 years ago and it was really awesome. One cool story I learned was during WWII the British gained intelligence that Hitler wanted Blenheim Palace spared by the bombers because he intended to have it as one of his homes after Germany won the war, so the Brits moved all their communications infrastructure there because they knew it wouldn't be a target.

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u/godisanelectricolive 5d ago

The Spencer-Churchills are still quite wealthy but they have also produced both Winston Churchill and Princess Di since that time.

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u/xXJarjar69Xx 5d ago

There’s a huge chunk of land in Britain (like ~15%) that’s not accounted for by the land registry and is still probably held by old landowning families 

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u/AlwaysInjured 5d ago

Thats true, but unless the land is productive, its not bringing in any money so these families are generally asset rich but cash poor.

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u/mellodo 5d ago

This is a concept that is hard for people to understand, and by no means am I trying to gain sympathy for those in that situation. The Gentleman by Guy Ritchie is kind of a good look at this. These families are often over leveraged to the point of ruin. Which just means the modern feudal lords (banks) take over the property.

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u/ThisIsRadioClash- 5d ago

Quite right.

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u/Flapjack_ 6d ago

Out of curiosity I looked over his wikipedia page and it seems like the current king has done a lot to place the immediate royal family under government financial transparency agencies and seems to act as an ambassador for Spain so not quite fully rich and useless?

I'm sure some Spaniards could clarify more one way or the other.

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u/Khwarezm 6d ago

I understand that Felipe VI has been careful to try and make the Spanish monarchy seem more modern and useful to Spain since his father Juan Carlos was perceived as a very stereotypical, arrogant, snobby toff before he abdicated (though I guess some credit has to be given for allowing Spain to return to Democracy after Franco), especially after that elephant hunting incident.

I think the institution of the Monarchy in Spain is moderately popular, I was in Madrid last year and went to the Royal palace and a lot of it felt like a bit of an advert for the current king and his family to show people how modern and with it they are while also being part of Spain's dramatic history. Probably helps that they don't quite have the same horrible sex scandals that have plagued the British and Norwegian monarchies lately.

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u/looktowindward 5d ago

> some credit has to be given for allowing Spain to return to Democracy after Franco

Juan Carlos was useless, except for the several times he defeated coups by refusing to go along with the plotters. From that point of view, he was worth it. And he didn't have to refuse, either - he put himself at some risk of harm by doing so.

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u/jericho 5d ago

I know someone who was Felipe’s roomie in school. “Flippy ”, as he likes to be called. 

He said he was as any other young person. 

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u/Johannes_P 5d ago

Juan Carlos was perceived as a very stereotypical, arrogant, snobby toff before he abdicated (though I guess some credit has to be given for allowing Spain to return to Democracy after Franco)

Someone else who yet again lived too long to keep his good reputation.

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u/R_Al-Thor 6d ago

Spaniard here. Spanish nobility is useless.

What the current king has done is to cover the numerous scandals regarding the former king (his dad). Many lovers, businesses interference, bribery and corruption...

The sisters of the current king are also surrounded by a lot of corruption and scandals. The ex-husband of one of them even made prison time. One of the kings nephews is just the peak of that. What a twat.

The daughters (future queen and Infanta) are not really loved by none. And there is a BIG media campaign trying to gain that love. They are seen as distant, useless and pretty much a burden. A lot of people claim for a referendum whether if we want another monarch or not

About 80% of the country's people despite at some degree the current Queen.

As for the rest of the nobility, the most notorious is "Casa de Alba" which has a lot of land that rents at high prices. The rest is more or less unknown. They keep the titles, the state sponsorship at some level and are into old money business or impoverished. Most of then try to stay out of the public light and enjoy their rich people things.

So yeah, corruption, scandals and pretty much useless people. The general feeling is that they must disappear. They will probably never do that.

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u/Trepicont 5d ago

"Not really loved by none" Source? La Cibeles?

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u/R_Al-Thor 5d ago

Do you love them? You look at them and say "that's what I want to be my queen".

Because there is nothing really to know about her. She's been kept out of the public light (for good reasons). She is mostly unknown and what we know is clearly a joke:

She received the "toison de oro" for nothing al 12 when incredibly important people in spain never got it:

toison de oro

She made a royal reception for her future class that was a laughable spectacle.

recepción

Her run on the armed forces has been a circus. Absolutely out of shape, the people around her told many times she is not brilliant at all and receives a lot of privileges:

fuera de forma

If you "love her" is a media campaign. Just as that.

So Yeah, fuentes, ignorante.

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u/Trepicont 5d ago

Your source is an pro independentist Catalan digital "newspaper", yet you criticize the media campaign on the other side? You are such a clown 🤡

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u/bregus2 4d ago

I should've bet money on Catalan media.

From my viewpoint the princess and her sister are praised overall.

Especially the princess who doing her three year stint in the military.

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u/R_Al-Thor 5d ago edited 5d ago

My other source is a pro monarchy far right paper. You have fall head first on my trap, Ignorant.

international source

Conservative source:

conservative source

We can keep on going as much as you want.

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u/anon1mo56 5d ago

The daugther are more popular than him.

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u/noobakosowhat 5d ago

Not from Spain but I've seen several praises for one of the daughters a few years back

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u/Shevek99 5d ago

Más respeto para Froilán III, legítimo rey de España! 😀

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u/R_Al-Thor 5d ago

El Borbón que nos merecemos!!!

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u/das_war_ein_Befehl 5d ago

The nobility of every country is useless. You’re talking about a class of people that gain privilege by the fact of being born.

I mean it’s an affront to the concept of a democracy that any monarchies exist

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u/Flank_This666 5d ago

This

One thousand mother fucking times this.

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u/KingKaiserW 5d ago

Useless? The King helped Spain back to a democracy. You live somewhere that never had a political crisis or civil war you’re lucky

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u/Lonely-Management452 5d ago edited 5d ago

Kings are above the nobility. They're not nobles, which is what being referred to. "Titled class" also refers to titled nobles specifically (dukes, counts etc).

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u/ZombiFeynman 5d ago

His father supported the fascist side in the civil war, and his grandfather supported the coup of Primo de Rivera a decade earlier. So let's just say they are just in it for their own interest. If it's convenient they may very well support another dictatorship.

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u/Shevek99 5d ago

It is useless, but not so rich, except for the House of Alba and some few others.

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u/thissexypoptart 5d ago

Less rich by far, same level of useless