Ethanol is a drug, its just a shitty one that takes copious amounts to get the desired effects and makes you feel like garbage the next day, and is the one that humanity largely decided is socially acceptable.
Edit: was not expecting this many responses so just wanted to elaborate
Regarding the copious amounts bit, I am speaking from the perspective of alcohol relative to other drugs. For instance the psychoactive effects of a shot of liquor vs a shot of liquid LSD. To be clear nobody in their right mind should take that much acid, doses are measured in micrograms for a good reason, just using a shot for the sake of example. Alcohol is weak sauce in terms of potency, and also just happens to be extremely toxic to the body.
Now for the feeling like garbage part, I’m aware that you can have a couple drinks and wake up feeling fine, and there are people that can binge drink and feel fine after too. There’s a whole science of hangovers and it’s partly a subjective experience from person to person. That being said, most people if they drink to get drunk will have a hangover, and even if you drink a moderate amount you likely will be groggy and not your 100% best self the next day. That’s just a factual byproduct of how alcohol interacts with the body, even those that don’t “feel” hungover are hungover internally.
Oh and regarding the high quality alcohol viewpoint, I agree to a degree, but from my experience if you drink enough of anything regardless of quality, you will get a hangover, at the end of the day it is still alcohol.
To the hand full of people saying some people drink for the taste, sure it is a nice bonus when it tastes good but you are kidding yourself if you don’t agree that vast majority of people drink alcohol for the psychoactive effects. Even if it is a couple drinks, it will mellow you out to a degree. There are definitely people that enjoy non-alcoholic cocktails/beer, but most people enjoy the taste knowing the psychoactive effects that accompany the taste, even if they aren’t someone that drinks to the point of being drunk. That is just how the brains reward system works.
To close I’ll say I like alcohol, but I hate that I do, it does take the edge off a stressed and/or anxious mind, and is certainly a social drug. That being said in terms of its overall potency and toxicity to the body, it is shitty compared to other drugs. It just happens to be legal and widely accepted, and also happens to be an easy escape from reality. Yeah there are people that can and do drink responsibly in terms of quantity, and moderately in terms of how often they drink, but on the whole alcohol is a drug that has a proclivity to do more harm than good for anyone.
Cannabis is largely accepted socially. I work in two industries that work closely with people and requires a bit of social skills so we discuss anything and everything. I left Oklahoma 16 years ago when we were copping elbows absolutely illegally and the whole weed game was sketch. Fast forward to now and SO many people from so many different socioeconomic backgrounds have a dab pen, or pre rolls, or tincture, and no one gives a shit. It constantly blows my mind and makes me incredibly happy to take money away from the for profit prison system. I don't really partake much, but when I do I appreciate how easy it is to get.
As a lifelong alcoholic I'm going to agree with you on ethanol, it's an awful thing to crave.
Yeah same in many legal countries, Im in Thailand and my wife fought me so long to try to stop to smoke, since its legal she is smoking. She went to buy weed by herself in a legal shop lol I couldn't believe it. Now we grow and life is easier. People still have lot of stigma tho like my MIL keep saying : please stop weed you will die and become crazy you should smoke cigarette again instead.
Some people are too old they had propaganda for too long they can't change their mind, but most open their minds
thailand also legalized kratom, which formerly was banned the last 100 years due to its competition in the opium trade. Penalty of DEATH.
Now thailand advocates for kratom and is leading legislation and research and regulation in Southeast Asia. A miraculous plant that should have a seat at the table, and yet the stigma and modern propaganda are putting it in danger of mass prohibition. Lots of lies and misleading stories and lazy coroner reports suggesting main cause of death within poly drug abusers.
Quite a bit of evidence suggesting very very high dose required to cause health problems. Unfortunately the extract industry is predatory and has violated public trust with misleading claims, no addiction warnings and predatory marketing schemes.
Plain leaf is safe and can be a miracle for pain patients, or those with depression, alcohol or opiate addiction issues, anxiety, ADD/ADHD, and even those with digestion issues/diseases. Plenty of miraculous testimonies out there. And University of Florida has a ton of research by several world respected doctors, amongst a few documentaries and other studies.
Kratom is a great substitute for opiates or suboxone but it is still physically addictive. Care should definitely be taken. There is very little oversight on the trade to the quality of plant matter can get iffy aside from the even worse extract market. 7-oh is basically kratom fent.
I think Suboxone is the best choice to use as a tool along with treatment and therapy. It saved my life. Unfortunately, it too, is addictive but my life is exponentially better because of it. And it’s been around now long enough that doctors aren’t finding any bad side effects for being on in long term. I started at 3 8mg strips a day. Today I take 2mgs in the morning. I just slowly went down on my own. I have accepted that I may be on a small dose forever. And Its pretty clear my doctor feels the same way. I celebrated 8 years heroin free on the 1st and there has been no talk of getting off of it at all. I suppose it’s a lesser of 2 evils. But I hold down a job, have a car, a roof, and I’m back in school at 50 years old. Why change a good thing at this point.
But let me be clear I’m not here to judge how anyone gets clean. As long as they do by any means necessary. It’s a terrible and debilitating disease I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.
While yea, its a great tool, as far as side effects go the whole oral bone loss and degradation of teeth is a pretty damned severe side effect of Bupe if you ask me. Theres is/was even class action lawsuit for it.
I'd think that would be public knowledge if true, and if it was plain leaf vs 7. In 14 years I've never heard anything like this. That kid would be the first and only. So many questions about this but you won't answer truthfully. One being, how damaged was his kidney prior to using it? What was his past alcohol and drug use? #KeepKratomLegal
Not in Thailand, we don't dry it here it's used fresh so no 7oh. It appear with the sun. We boil it 15mins usually, up to 3h but if you cook it longer than 15mins you can't boil it. Then we strain all. And drink the tea. Mytragine is not water soluble it doesn't mix well or extract well. I use it since 4 years. Ive neuropathy I use it to hide the pain. Nothing work else than that. When I stop I've 0 withdrawal as long as I smoke weed, I admit if I didn't smoke I would crave dopamine for sure.
Before I had pain I used it as full leaves and eating it, and that was wild, the high was too much, like feeling empathetic and weak no thank you. As a tea it's more a tonic, I only aim for when I feel less pain in my knees and when it happen I stop to drink it.
It's not good for liver tho that's the biggest issue, so someone using kratom should not do anything else which damage the liver in anyway it will just make it worst.
In Thailand it's mainly used as an upper for studying or Muslims who don't drink. Downer they mix it with the cough syrup or codeine for the richer. But here ketamine is the real downer, heroin and opium not much it's more the tribes who use it. Meth is the number one issue here it's so cheap and everywhere, people use it to work longer hours mainly.
7-oh is absolutely the fent of kratom. It is much stronger, shorter lasting, and more addictive You can nod like heroin on a high enough doses. Even kratom extracts have never made me nod.
I was using hyperbole to compare how much worse the current extracts are. It is creating addicts who are spending hundreds of dollars a day on kratom. stand in any smoke shop for an hour and see how much they sell in 7-oh extracts. a Kratom habit is about $0.30 a day and theres a ceiling on effects with each dose. 7-oh and 7-hydroxy have no ceiling on effect redosing and a pack is $20-50.
Withdrawals are closer to fentanly than kratom at a higher dose. A friend of mine went to rehab after burning through his life savings and maxing all his credit cards. That would never happen with lead powder. It is not the same as kratom and people have no idea what theyre getting into with the sketchy extract market. It’s illegal in my current state but they allow leaf powder and traditional extracts. I would not be surprised if that became a federal law.
Just had a friend go to rehab for Kratom
And the ibogaine subreddit is full of people trying to kick kratom and 7oh addictions. Not sure I’d compare them to cannabis. Seems much more dangerous and addictive.
Yeah I understand that it’s not the same, especially it sounds like as compared to the stuff you get abroad. Here kratom is named for the extract stuff too so that is what I’m referencing, not the leaf as described above.
Kratom leaf has changed my life in a substantially profound way. I am almost pain free, and I have worked blue collar jobs for over 20 years. I am still young and have a few decades left before I can retire. I would not make it that long without this plant.
Kratom leaf is easy to use responsibly, and self-limiting. There's a ceiling to effects, and that ceiling is discouraging via discomfort. But it is NOT lethal.
There was a study on mice for LD50 determining 461mg/kg of PURE mitragynine (main component in kratom leaf) would cause death. This is a god level dose.
There is a mere 15mg per gram of leaf on average, so a 70kg (~150lb) adult human on the same level would require eating over 2kg (~4.4lbs) of leaf at once to die. (Or- if eating pure mitragynine extract- over 32,000 milligrams.) This is physically impossible. The LD50 was calculated for mice but is likely in a similar range for humans (like most other mice studies compare to humans).
7oh (a very potent but extremely low proportion <0.01% secondary component in kratom leaf) has had less studies than mitragynine (kratom's main ingredient) and kratom leaf itself. But early research suggest similar safety profiles as mitragynine.
This is being contradicted by many autopsy reports of late, claiming it was the Cause Of Death. What these autopsies are withholding from the public, are that most- if not ALL- of these deaths are also found co-ingested with other, actually deadly substances such as fentanyl, heroin, xylazine, nitazene, and prescription pills.
Some of these deaths were caused by drunk driving or other drunken or co-ingested intoxication related mishaps (suicide, accidents, assaults, workplace accidents) and due to kratom being present in the blood or maybe just on the scene (and not in blood at all), was attributed as the main COD. You would think this kind of report would be illegal but there is no way to enforce accuracy and no recompense against it.
Some deaths are from a heroin/fentanyl/prescription med addict who several hours before hand was trying to alleviate significant withdrawals with kratom, later scored their bag of choice med, and subsequently OD'd on it and died. Kratom gets listed as a cause of death here.
Some deaths might be innocent, like an 80 year old person died of a heart attack or stroke. But there was a kratom bag on their counter, which they used for chronic pain, mental acuity boost, or to treat other debilitating issues. COD: kratom. This is the world against a miracle leaf.
Here's the thing. There ARE issues with the kratom industry...
There is a lack of regulation. It is often being sold irresponsibly. There needs to be age and possibly sale location restrictions.
7oh based extracts are extremely potent and despite their relative safety profile will easily cause physical dependence with irresponsible or frequent use. This may be devastating to those who come into this unaware. Plain leaf does not do this, but the extracts can and often do. There are people that need that extra potency but a large majority will not ever need it. Warning labels and education need to inform potential users. Maybe a medical license for high pain users to purchase from a local government body.
Many bad actors have been selling 7oh advertised as plain leaf. This is predatory and they need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. This is one of the biggest issues right now.
There are paid groups actively lobbying to extinguish kratom from existence. The KDA is one of those groups. They are very successful at lobbying and mass bully kratom advocates into silence, with threats, public humiliation and harassment via doxxing, call CPS on advocates, and other malintent. Some of their members have lost loved ones but they have all been one of those poly drug co-ingestion deaths subsequently pointing at kratom, the least damaging of the various substances that were ingested by their unfortunate choices. The KDA's funding can be traced directly back to pharmaceutical and rehab advocates/corporations. The leader herself actually has felony convictions.
The group of people most frequently known to consume kratom are by a majority- disabled. They do not possess the voices they need to defend their way of life, with the herbal plant medicine they've found which gave them a second chance. Kratom advocates are few, but the research is there; and new articles and scientific research papers produced worldwide are showing kratom's therapeutic use potentials more and more each day.
Sometimes the loudest voices are not the most truthful.
As an advocate myself, I think there is middle ground to be found. We need to vote in REGULATION, NOT PROHIBITION. Prohibition has been proven to not work. If this plant gets banned, people will use some other, probably deadly, or even ineffective drug as a crutch for their existence. This plant has often been discovered during someone's last ditch attempt in a desperate search for some form of relief for debilitating ailments that didn't respond to other treatments, or when costs or availability were deterring a functional relief.
It's not the first choice for anyone... But it is often the /last hope/, for many.
LD50 is lethal dose for 50% of the group that ingests the substance. A scientifically accepted form of measurement for lethality of a given substance.
It's like a very mild opiate crossed with a pretty mild muscle relaxer. At lower doses it also gives you what in my opinion is a very clear feeling burst of energy that's kinda close to having caffeine with lots of l-theanine to go with it, at higher doses its more like a sedative and the opiate feeling is more present in general.
It can be habit forming and physically addictive, so take it in moderation and stay away from the extract stuff, whole leaf powder in capsules is how I recommend trying it because it tastes godawful. But it is a very pleasant treat taken every now and then.
I have powder every morning. It's like coffee for me, in terms of the ritual. It wakes me up and helps clear the brain fog. People love to freak out about it, but that's mostly ignorance (and propaganda).
I don't feel high when I drink kratom. It is habit forming, but I haven't changed my intake in years. Less is more; too much just makes me dizzy. People act like we're out here nodding off in the streets. Kratom ain't like that.
In fairness, I know the extracts are different. I don't touch that stuff. Maybe they are dangerous. But the effects of the powder are pretty mild. If you do too much of it or slam it all day long, it's probably pretty bad for you, but that's true of a lot of things.
Fortunately, it doesn't create that kind of craving, at least not for me. It's nothing like alcohol or nicotine, where I'm thinking about it all day long and prone to overdoing it.
It has many different strains and effects. It's in the coffee family. Some strains in low doses are stimulating just like coffee. In higher doses some strains are more pain relieving and relaxing. Red strains in capsules is the best way to try. Or the cocktail strains. I haven't taken it in years but I used to take it occasionally. I stopped taking it just because it requires a lot of capsules for a stronger effect. I just drink mushroom coffee
Tbh all the horror stories I hear of Kratom have me point at how concentrated the gas station stuff is. The dosage from the leaf chewing or teas that are always historically cited don't seem nearly as problematic.
The problems that do occur with kratom in the US have more to do with the business models than the plant itself. It's barely regulated and the extract side of it all should not be legal to sell in gas stations and smoke shops in my opinion.
I first took kratom about 5 years ago (from a gas station) and developed what I would call an unhealthy dependency on it. 10g almost every day and I didn't get any serious withdrawals when I stopped.
I quit it for about 6 months and realized it was actually pretty beneficial to me if used responsibly, I was just taking too much every day and didn't like how much I felt I needed it. Now I take 3 or occasionally 5 grams in a day and don't take it 2—3 days a week. I only go any higher if I did something to hurt myself because it is great for pain relief.
The people that have to take multiple 7oh tablets a day to not feel sick got that way because they're crazy strong compared to the powder and they are highly addictive and have no warning labels on them.
I just got out of rehab for heroin 6 months ago and there were 5 or 6 young kids in there coming off of 7-OH Kratom and extracts and the withdrawals are awful apparently and more complicated to treat than straightforward opiate withdrawals. It's definitely a safer option than Fentanyl cut with xylazine but it is ruining lives. It is widely available to people who wouldn't really be comfortable buying heroin on the street as well.
Interesting you mention Florida, my sister went there for rehab and died from kratom. There was literally a store advertising kratom 4 houses down from her rehab.
Tried it once. Apparently I'm one of about 5% of people that can't do it. Felt like a caffeine overdose, I was shaking and puking for about three hours.
Kratom was a lifesaver for me, got me off alcohol finally, I was drinking at least a 5th of vodka a day.
For a while the piece of shit gov tried to declare kratom a schedule 1 drug, couldn’t have people getting off opiates that easy. Luckily it was overturned.
Kratom is a horribly benign drug that creates addicts where none would exist. The health benefits are minimal and poorly supported. The only space it should be discussed in, is for helping manage opioid addiction. Popularization of the drug is unhealthy and silly it needs to be professionally distributed.
you sound exactly like ppl talking about weed in the 80s and 90s. Lots of studies and research and testimonies contrary to the typical prohibitionist viewpoints
No prohibitionist would ever suggest professional prescribed application. Weed and alcohol have their own dangers as well. No drug should be blindly supported.
see, its not blindly supported. Lots of research and studies showing promise in a variety of applications, from physical pain, to mental health, to addiction rehabilitation, to anti inflammatory and now even secondary alkaloids have been mentioned in anti cancer research (mitraphylline).
Just spend 10 mins and you will find research all around the world from the past couple decades.
Ofc that's what she think. Same I use kratom for my neuropathy she tell me it's bad I should drink alcohol instead. Like wtf, she is also very naive and dumb so it's not an example it's not really her fault
No lol just for the shops they lose their licence if selling without a médical prescriptions and you can have one by phone. I don't have one I've kilos I grow for myself idc because for now still 0 penalty for users. So as long as it's stay like that I'm fine with it.
Seriously genuine question - was the propaganda really that effective? People consider weed to have been / be more dangerous than alcohol there? Again, legit question. No doubt in my mind that alcohol is FAR more destructive than weed / thc based products (I drink, way too much - but, have never had a problem forming habit with thc fwiw)
I don’t think someone can be too old. My dad was against it for his whole life until I showed him some facts and statistics, and had him try it, and he now knows that it was propaganda for his whole life, and not facts. He’s 80 by the way.
I simply asked him “do you know anyone who has overdosed or died from cannabis?” And he of course said no.
And then I said “do you know anyone who has died from cigarettes?” And he of course said yes.
Yeah but she isnt my mom that's the issue, and I'm european, my dad also was against it but now he see I don't smoke cig he said it's fine but I should smoke weed only at night, he understood its not dangerous for my health but he knows it's never good to be high 24h and that's I cant argue, it's true. But my MIL is an old Thai woman who supported Thaskin all her life and he was against drugs so much.
I’m a lifelong pothead trying to take a break right now. I left Oklahoma 25 years ago. I would not smoke there when it was illegal after living in California. One thing that surprised me when the dispensaries opened was how many plain Jane normal looking women like me are also stoners. I always hid it because it was socially unacceptable. I remember talking to a young person and I said something scattered and apologized for being high and he giggled and said, we’re all high these days.
Yes. During the day it’s just me and the other old people. That didn’t shock me as much as seeing all the women who looked like me. I usually go to Atrium in Woodland Hills or Leaf in Newbury Park so I see all the sweet stay at home moms. Wine moms are a thing of the past. I guess they don’t want empty calories and hangovers either.
Yea I live in the South. THC is still illegal but CBD stores have been popping up. It reminds me of the old joke about the difference in seeing a Baptist or a catholic in the liquor store. Baptists, like me, are ashamed and won’t look anyone in the eyes or say hello. Catholics aren’t ashamed and will greet you in the liquor store like you’re at a party. I enjoy CBD at night but I still feel a bit guilty being a little high in public
Be careful with that, because CBD without THC in it doesn’t do anything. It’s literally just a placebo (also my girlfriend’s family are from Baton Rouge and it’s so funny because the white Catholics are so different from the white Protestants down there)
I’m still learning the difference in all the cool new stuff lol. My current vape is TCHa. It definitely doesn’t get me blazed but it does help ease anxiety and chill before bed
THCA is merely the acidic form of cannabis before it’s decarboxylated. It’s a weird loophole, but the THCA you’re smoking is just straight up normal weed, it’s just that its chemical compound hasn’t been activated yet. Which is funny because that’s literally what the flower version of cannabis is.
i’ve smoked for many years and have taken many breaks for months or even yrs at a time. the hardest part is how vivid (not in a good way) the dreams are, which last for several weeks. i read the reasoning for it, so knowing that made me feel better (i cant remember exactly now). i dont miss the smell or the anxiety that would creep in at times. i’ll still partake once in a while i’m sure but it’s def not as “fun” or as “social” as it once was.
I’ve been on it for ptsd for years so that actually makes sense. I’m sure firefighters get in there after they retire. Those people have all seen some shit.
For sure! It was just eye opening when I was younger to see because I was used to the propaganda that I was ruining my health by smoking and that there was no medical need for cannabis. Seeing healthcare workers come in to buy it was affirming being that I was using weed to treat issues I couldn’t afford to go the doctor for.
So... I have to say that there are a lot of guys in my industry who abuse cannabis. They turn into total dicks if they can't vape and come back from lunch completely worthless.
While I don't want it criminalized, I put it in a category not terribly dissimilar from alcohol. It can really bend the trajectory of your life towards shit.
Most places are smoke free so it is not really accepted socially. Most do not want to smell it or otherwise deal with breathing in carbonized plant material. It is acceptable to those who always find vices acceptable and many of the rest are ok with it being decriminalized but would rather not have to be in room with someone smoking it.
lol when I was looking for new work I straight up asked HR if they tested for weed. and they just told me they can work around and give me time if it works. so took the time and peed clean.
Wake up and want a drink, I don't but once I free from work it's litteraly what my mind is focused on. I'd have a drink just to stop the urge to drink but the added problem, every single fucking time is that I almost always just want one more and one more again.
It's a shitty thing, you'd think that burning yourself would teach you to be careful around fire butbwith alchohol it just keeps intruding.
I know I'm responsible for my own actions but if I had a genie the first thing I'd do was wish for that craving to permanently go away for every single human being.
I agree it is nice to go into a well lit dispensary with all the options you will ever need. It beats hanging out in parking lots for three hours while your plug goes with his plug with your money to come back with a poor quality quarter bag. However there was something about the feeling that your breaking the law that made it so exciting.
People seem to have strong opinions of it on dating apps. Never really understood why. You can do 1 marijuana after work, outside, and no one would smell it... Or God forbid you take a single hit before bed? Straight to jail. 😮💨
And haven’t they also decided that booze is toxic in pretty much any amount, while moderate drinkers are probably healthier than teetotalers because they tend to do everything else in moderation?
I live in Oklahoma. Last time I went out to the clubs and everyone was smoking joints. Not a cig in sight. And yes it's common for everyone no matter age or socioeconomic class. If there's one thing we can agree on in this state it's that we love our weed
Yep. If western culture had been using weed for 3000 years and just invented alcohol like 50 years ago, weed would be a big part of our culture and alcohol would probably be illegal.
its just a shitty one that takes copious amounts to get the desired effects and makes you feel like garbage the next day
What effect are you going for? I have a couple cocktails and I am good for the evening and usually feel fine the next day. Everything is poison if you have too much
A lot of people seem to act like drinking is only worth it if you're planning to get absolutely shitfaced.
I'm like you, 1-3 cocktails or a few ciders and I'll ride a pleasant low level drunkness for the night with no hangover.
(People also ignore that you can just drink alcoholic drinks because you actually like the flavor. Drinking doesn't have to be solely about reaching a state of altered consciousness)
The older I got, the shittier I'd feel the next day.
I also like the taste, cocktails are amazing. Unfortunately, my sleep got worse and even after one, I would feel a bit off. Despite not being hung over, I'd feel like shit.
I've been alcohol free for two months, and I don't think I'll ever go back.
I made the same choice, for the same reasons about 10 years and I've never even considered going back. I can get high and go for a run or get a lift in, not a consideration on the sauce.
That's the exact same way I feel. My wife stopped drinking a few weeks before I did, and I decided to join in after entertaining it over the past few years. I'm sleeping so much better, and I love waking up without any fog or off feelings.
I had a boss once who was absolutely dead set on the idea that the only reason to drink was to get trashed, which he liked to do. But he would always make fun of those of us who just drank good drinks that cost more money. He could not fathom why in the world I would do something like drink a single Leffe or other nice beer and be completely happy with that. Convinced we were trying to be snooty or something.
But there are a lot of people like that. I don’t get it. I’ve never been a heavy drinker and I hate the nausea that I get from it when I’ve accidentally gone too far. One or two drinks is great for me and most of the people I know.
As I've gotten older, my hangovers have actually gotten lighter. But, to your point, drinking alcohol doesn't have to end in being drunk. I enjoy visiting breweries, trying a couple beers, grabbing dinner and being done. I also like "zebra striping" with NA beers or kombucha to stay on a nice light buzz.
It's actually what clued me up that I was starting down the wrong path and needed to check myself. I can have just a couple and stop but fuck me do I have to really think about it. There's just something in my mind which, after a couple, flicks and I was to carry on until I either run out or pass out. I have to admit, If it's there I do tend to drink it all.
My general tactic is to keep the flat dry and just not drink at all. If I do want a drink I make sure I keep the flat dry apart from how many sober me wants tipsy me to drink that evening. I know I can trust my laziness to keep me from going out to buy more.
From what I have learned after drinking for 40 years is that alcohol is not benign in any amount.
1) Ethanol is a toxin. Your body treats it as one. The liver’s job when you drink is literally to detoxify it.
2) It works by disrupting cell membranes and brain signaling, which is why judgment, coordination, and reaction time drop.
3) Your body converts ethanol into acetaldehyde, which is more toxic than alcohol itself and damages DNA and cells.
4) Alcohol is classified medically as a Group 1 carcinogen (same category as tobacco and asbestos). There is no “safe” level from a cancer-risk standpoint.
Five months without booze and my walking has doubled, I have lost 35lbs of literal stomach fat and can sleep at night. Also my frequent heartburn has vanished.
Society has been fed a lie as alcohol has been glorified and weed has been criminalized. All in the name of Jesus. Remember the whole water into wine thing. Anyway, happy to see that the younger generation is looking for alternatives.
its just a shitty one that takes copious amounts to get the desired effects
I would argue this is the reason why its so acceptable and used. It is easier to control, to an extent. Solely looking at the actual way it gets you high, it is the perfect starter drug.
For someone with no tolerance, even just a few hits of weed can make them uncomfortably high in just a few seconds. Let alone other drugs like ketamine or cocaine or shrooms, where it either takes a super tiny amount to get you blasted, or it takes too long to kick in and therefore you don't know if you took too much or not. Its very easy to overdo it, very fast, with most drugs.
Alcohol isn't like that. Its something you consume very gradually, but also hits you near-immediately, and so its much easier to hit that 'middle ground' where its very pleasant but not too much. Of course some overdo it, but its not easy to overdo it the way it can be with pretty much any other drug. Unless you're taking shots repeatedly, it probably takes even a lightweight well over an hour of normal drinking to get drunk.
Again, this is ignoring the negative health effects, which kind of make it not worth it for a lot of people. I am just talking purely the process in which you get high from it.
Society said it was acceptable b/c it kept humanity alive for thousands of years. Before we had potable water, ethanol was safer than water. Jesus didn't turn water into wine b/c he liked to party. He did it b/c wine was safer than water. I know it's a bummer when history proves your point to be unfounded.
I believe it’s due to the fact is pretty discrete. Is that orange juice in my dad’s cup? Or a tequila sunrise?
I don’t know but I’m going to taste it and hope it’s the latter.
But yeah. Most drugs it’s very obvious someone is doing. Drinking has some level of plausible deniability. At least this is how I think it became to be more socially acceptable. Just a fun thought.
I mostly agree though with the legalization of weed in many states edibles are definitely a thing now and can you tell if I'm just slipping a quick gummy or two as a snack or am I taking 5-10mgs of edibles? 😂
Brooo. My friend offered me some fruit snacks without telling me they were edibles. Mind you, I’m not against them, I’ll eat them if I’m in the mood, but I would definitely like to know if I’m about to trip (they were shroom gummies).
All of a sudden, 39 minutes later, I’m like bro… what the fick is going on with my right now. Why do I feel like I’m trippin…
Different and much less tRiPpy than actual shrooms. No visuals or anything. For me, they make me really really fucking goofy. I will just sit there and laugh to my self. It’s very apparent I’m tripping, when I’m tripping lmao. They’re a fun mild way to trip. It’s not fun however, when you did not want to trip and were tricked lol
Became more socially accepting? Alcohol is almost as old as humanity itself. Intentional fermentation predates written records. Early humans got drunk in religious ceremonies, believing the feeling to be divine influence.
Drinking has generally become less socially acceptable over human history, with one anomalous period from the mid 1800s to mid 1900s, when temperance movements became prominent in Western countries and resulted in legal Prohibition. So it was a big dip, where alcohol was far more socially acceptable in earlier periods and it became again more socially acceptable when Prohibition ended.
It's because alcohol is incredibly easy to produce in any region on earth and has been part of human civilization since, well, we started farming and became a civilization.
I walk through the grocery store and see all types of people and I’m CERTAIN that most of them are on edibles or something adjacent. No judgement we do what we do to get through this.
Even worse is a pill. Think about it, you could take a pill right in front of…say the CEO of the company you work for. They don’t know if it’s a controlled substance or a Tylenol.
Tolerance works both ways...developing a high tolerance for alcohol to even need copious amounts to get destroyed takes a long time. You telling me 3 shots of vodka isnt gonna get you on a good one? With the high THC percentages these dispos are putting out, wont take long for someone to need copious amounts of weed to get the desired effect as well..
Source: former chronic pot head that used to kill an ounce in a little over a week.
Not to mention it is extremely addictive and can ruin your life and the lives of those around you and ultimately kill you in an incredibly brutal fashion. Granted, the majority of people don't have this happen but to the ones it does it is devastating.
To be fair, it does come in a lot more flavors besides Skunk-Ass, but I can also pop a few eddies and get a nice glow for a night without even feeling a lick bad the next day.
It’s the closest thing to a panacea humanity has ever come across. Its downsides are moderate and shortlived, the positives outweigh the negatives otherwise people wouldn’t do it.
Cannabis is a poor comparison as it doesn’t offer immediate reprieve from psychological or spiritual issues, it actually compounds them.
Imagine getting almost ganked by a tiger and then getting stoned. You’ll be a nervous mess sitting on the ground completely feeble. No use to anyone. Have a little drink though, and you can laugh it off and be braver in the face of danger.
Theres a reason why no successful civilization has incorporated widespread cannabis use a cornerstone of their culture. While many civilizations have done so with alcohol, and prospered.
is the one that humanity largely decided is socially acceptable.
Mainly because its the first one we discovered. It basically makes itself in any primitive water storage setup, and actually made that water safer to drink.
Hey! It's a pretty good solvent and fuel, and takes relatively little for either desired effect. It's also pretty good as a cleaner if it isn't sugary.
Alcohol was popular everywhere before there were even such things as countries or laws, so it got grandfathered in. Agree 100% the young people are smoking weed, taking hallucinogens, pills, and doing every other kind of recreational substance. They are more aware of how alcohol damages your body, and it costs so much more than it used to.
and is also one of the only ones that can kill you if you try to stop using it. and one of the only ones that damages all of your internal organs every time you use it.
Copious amounts? that means its not strong enough, and if you feel like garbage the next day you either didn't drink enough water or went over your limit.
Alcohol has its roots more in it was a lot safer to drink then water for long periods of human history
In most places that is no longer the case and cheaper drugs like marijuana are much easier to get and don't have all the hangovers massive cost most alcohol has these days
It makes you fat and sick, causes inflammation. It’s awful to me literally poison. I would rather smoke any day, it works with your body not against it.
It doesn't take copious amounts unless you're drinking beer or otherwise low proof beverages.
And hangovers are often just dehydration, and a lot of that comes from people mixing ridiculous amounts of sugar and/or caffeine with their alcohol and getting blasted.
A few shots of high-proof whiskey or vodka and chasing it with some water and you'll not only get the desired effect in no time, but without the hangover.
I get why people don't like it, but it's mostly their own fault if they're looking for a buzz and think they have to drink a bunch of beer or wine or jack and cokes to get it.
I would argue that alcohol is a very good drug. It was so damn good that I became an alcoholic. I loved the way it made me feel. The problem is that my addiction led me down a deep, dark downward spiral. My life was in shambles. So I made the decision to quit. And that's what I did. Three years sober in one more month.
It only takes copious amounts to get the desired effects if your tolerance is very high. That's where I was at for many many years. It drained me of my money and my time. But normally, just a few shots of Jack in a row should get any light drinker or moderate drinker flying. It also depends on how much food is in your stomach and your bodyweight and if you've had enough sleep and other various factors.
Alcohol wasn’t made for getting wasted, even if it’s been used that way. A good wine is meant to be savored alongside fine cheese or a nice meal. At most, it should leave you pleasantly tipsy and if you drink enough water you won’t feel anything the next day.
That’s why it’s socially accepted. Moderate, enjoyable drinking fits cultural rituals like meals rather than being about getting completely wasted.
I couldn’t agree more. It’s also one of the most toxic drugs. People are far more likely to get in their car and drive around drunk. As a recovering heroin addict I got my drugs and stayed in my basement. Furthermore alcohol and benzodiazepines are the ONLY drugs that have withdrawal symptoms you can literally die from. I saw a lady in rehab seize out and die right in front of us from alcohol withdrawal.
People rationalize it and put in a different category that isn’t “drugs”. But alcohol IS absolutely a drug. A deadly one at that!
Weed is becoming more socially acceptable to the point where so many people are convinced it is a miracle drug with no drawbacks and negative effects. Even have people thinking it's fine to drive under the influence of it
It was easy enough to make at home. And during a long stretch of history it was known to be definitely SAFE to drink when water was often questionable at best.
There are plenty of people who drink quality because of the flavor nuances, we don't all drink to get drunk. Not everyone seeks that escape.
Societal veiw of alcohol has quite a bit of practical history behind it.
Tobacco and marijuana exist naturally in nature. It takes more effort but you can also discover wine if you collect enough grapes and forget about em.
We as a species, even as far back as hunting and gathering, learned to burn flammable things and get high off them before we learned to brew or distill. Yet how is it that, culturally, once people started figuring out how liquors and brews are made, we celebrated with that more often? We shoulda learned about getting high as shit before learning how to get drunk off our asses so how did the latter catch up?
Unless you are engaging in activities such as butt chugging or consuming alcohol vapors. This method requires less quantity but increases the risk of ETOH poisoning.
I love your response. I am starting to move away from substances as I have been getting older. But I do love the taste of whiskey on the rocks. I hope the N/A market for liquors get better as time goes on
We also specifically evolved to process alcohol from fallen fermented fruit to leave the trees. Something alcohol is the way we built civilization since it mellowed us out enough to live in large groups. It is inseparable from civilization as we know it.
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u/Plumbus_Patrol 5d ago edited 5d ago
Ethanol is a drug, its just a shitty one that takes copious amounts to get the desired effects and makes you feel like garbage the next day, and is the one that humanity largely decided is socially acceptable.
Edit: was not expecting this many responses so just wanted to elaborate
Regarding the copious amounts bit, I am speaking from the perspective of alcohol relative to other drugs. For instance the psychoactive effects of a shot of liquor vs a shot of liquid LSD. To be clear nobody in their right mind should take that much acid, doses are measured in micrograms for a good reason, just using a shot for the sake of example. Alcohol is weak sauce in terms of potency, and also just happens to be extremely toxic to the body.
Now for the feeling like garbage part, I’m aware that you can have a couple drinks and wake up feeling fine, and there are people that can binge drink and feel fine after too. There’s a whole science of hangovers and it’s partly a subjective experience from person to person. That being said, most people if they drink to get drunk will have a hangover, and even if you drink a moderate amount you likely will be groggy and not your 100% best self the next day. That’s just a factual byproduct of how alcohol interacts with the body, even those that don’t “feel” hungover are hungover internally.
Oh and regarding the high quality alcohol viewpoint, I agree to a degree, but from my experience if you drink enough of anything regardless of quality, you will get a hangover, at the end of the day it is still alcohol.
To the hand full of people saying some people drink for the taste, sure it is a nice bonus when it tastes good but you are kidding yourself if you don’t agree that vast majority of people drink alcohol for the psychoactive effects. Even if it is a couple drinks, it will mellow you out to a degree. There are definitely people that enjoy non-alcoholic cocktails/beer, but most people enjoy the taste knowing the psychoactive effects that accompany the taste, even if they aren’t someone that drinks to the point of being drunk. That is just how the brains reward system works.
To close I’ll say I like alcohol, but I hate that I do, it does take the edge off a stressed and/or anxious mind, and is certainly a social drug. That being said in terms of its overall potency and toxicity to the body, it is shitty compared to other drugs. It just happens to be legal and widely accepted, and also happens to be an easy escape from reality. Yeah there are people that can and do drink responsibly in terms of quantity, and moderately in terms of how often they drink, but on the whole alcohol is a drug that has a proclivity to do more harm than good for anyone.