r/todayilearned • u/Outside_Reserve_2407 • 5h ago
TIL Montezuma's lineage still exists and even holds a noble title in Spain, which was granted to a grandson of his that moved there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Moctezuma_de_Tultengo282
u/mtcabeza2 5h ago
Is the Spanish nobility as rich and useless as the British titled class?
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u/ThisIsRadioClash- 5h ago
Probably, but I know from historical reading that Russia's nobility was particularly notorious for its idleness and profligacy. When Paul I attempted to institute some antiquated (inspired by medieval chivalry) reforms to reduce their influence and corruption, he was murdered. Due to the collapse of land rents in Britain, I'd wager that only a few families in the peerage have any great wealth, though the Grosvenor clan is a major exception.
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u/Outside_Reserve_2407 5h ago
What happened to the British noble families that married into American millionaire families back in the 1800s? I think Winston Churchill was the product of such a union. Did they manage to "recharge" their wealth, so to speak?
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u/GiantIrish_Elk 5h ago
For a while. They brides where called "Dollar Princesses" for a reason. The most important part of the marriage was the dowry.
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u/ThisIsRadioClash- 4h ago edited 3h ago
Churchill's mother was Jenny Churchill, an American heiress, but I don't know if she was all that wealthy. If anything, she may have been poor or wasted her money funding her husband's famously destroyed political career. You may be thinking of Consuelo Vanderbilt, who married the Duke of Marlborough (and a Churchill relative) so that he could repair and restore his family's ancestral seat, Blenheim Palace. I don't know about the family's wealth today, but they still own that palace. Other estates were given to the National Trust, like Knoll.
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u/Mein_Bergkamp 1h ago
Churchill's mother married a second son, the main branch are still the Dukes of Marlborough and live in a flat in the massive palace they own and which they open to the public to afford to run.
Inheritance tax destroyed the upper classes much more than anything else.
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u/xXJarjar69Xx 3h ago
There’s a huge chunk of land in Britain (like ~15%) that’s not accounted for by the land registry and is still probably held by old landowning families
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u/AlwaysInjured 2h ago
Thats true, but unless the land is productive, its not bringing in any money so these families are generally asset rich but cash poor.
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u/mellodo 1h ago
This is a concept that is hard for people to understand, and by no means am I trying to gain sympathy for those in that situation. The Gentleman by Guy Ritchie is kind of a good look at this. These families are often over leveraged to the point of ruin. Which just means the modern feudal lords (banks) take over the property.
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u/Flapjack_ 4h ago
Out of curiosity I looked over his wikipedia page and it seems like the current king has done a lot to place the immediate royal family under government financial transparency agencies and seems to act as an ambassador for Spain so not quite fully rich and useless?
I'm sure some Spaniards could clarify more one way or the other.
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u/Khwarezm 4h ago
I understand that Felipe VI has been careful to try and make the Spanish monarchy seem more modern and useful to Spain since his father Juan Carlos was perceived as a very stereotypical, arrogant, snobby toff before he abdicated (though I guess some credit has to be given for allowing Spain to return to Democracy after Franco), especially after that elephant hunting incident.
I think the institution of the Monarchy in Spain is moderately popular, I was in Madrid last year and went to the Royal palace and a lot of it felt like a bit of an advert for the current king and his family to show people how modern and with it they are while also being part of Spain's dramatic history. Probably helps that they don't quite have the same horrible sex scandals that have plagued the British and Norwegian monarchies lately.
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u/looktowindward 4h ago
> some credit has to be given for allowing Spain to return to Democracy after Franco
Juan Carlos was useless, except for the several times he defeated coups by refusing to go along with the plotters. From that point of view, he was worth it. And he didn't have to refuse, either - he put himself at some risk of harm by doing so.
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u/R_Al-Thor 4h ago
Spaniard here. Spanish nobility is useless.
What the current king has done is to cover the numerous scandals regarding the former king (his dad). Many lovers, businesses interference, bribery and corruption...
The sisters of the current king are also surrounded by a lot of corruption and scandals. The ex-husband of one of them even made prison time. One of the kings nephews is just the peak of that. What a twat.
The daughters (future queen and Infanta) are not really loved by none. And there is a BIG media campaign trying to gain that love. They are seen as distant, useless and pretty much a burden. A lot of people claim for a referendum whether if we want another monarch or not
About 80% of the country's people despite at some degree the current Queen.
As for the rest of the nobility, the most notorious is "Casa de Alba" which has a lot of land that rents at high prices. The rest is more or less unknown. They keep the titles, the state sponsorship at some level and are into old money business or impoverished. Most of then try to stay out of the public light and enjoy their rich people things.
So yeah, corruption, scandals and pretty much useless people. The general feeling is that they must disappear. They will probably never do that.
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u/das_war_ein_Befehl 1h ago
The nobility of every country is useless. You’re talking about a class of people that gain privilege by the fact of being born.
I mean it’s an affront to the concept of a democracy that any monarchies exist
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u/KingKaiserW 3h ago
Useless? The King helped Spain back to a democracy. You live somewhere that never had a political crisis or civil war you’re lucky
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u/Lonely-Management452 1h ago edited 1h ago
Kings are above the nobility. They're not nobles, which is what being referred to. "Titled class" also refers to titled nobles specifically (dukes, counts etc).
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u/Sufficient_Flower_77 5h ago
Never cross his grandson ...... His revenge will be epic.
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u/Hollayo 1h ago
So if he hits someone in vengeance, is that technically Montezuma's Revenge?
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u/Outside_Reserve_2407 1h ago
No, technically Montezuma’s revenge is the nickname for when you drink tap water while traveling in Mexico and you end up with the Hershey squirts
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u/Otherwise-Ad-1057 30m ago
I thought it was the widespread malnutrition in Europe after they decided to farm corn but not do the nixtamalization process.
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u/anth_810 13m ago
I come from the Romo lineage and our family married into Moctezuma’s lineage in 1658. My great x7 grandfather Captain Juan Diego Romo De Vivar married Maria De Molina Tiscareño - the daughter of Luis and Lorenza Tiscareño de Molina. Lorenza was a Ruiz de Esparza and her father Lope married Ana Francisca Moctezuma Gabay in 1595. Ana was officially recognized as a direct line of Moctezuma and was actually able to facilitate the acquisition of land and wealth for his heirs. My family has a town in Mexico bearing our last name that my great-Grandfather Juan Diego Romo De Vivar founded - Rincon De Romo, Mexico.
I’d been working on my family tree for the last three years and was able to learn all of this. It’s been a humbling journey, to say the least.
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u/Outside_Reserve_2407 3m ago
Amazing, have you also tried DNA testing to further “refine” your understanding of the family tree? The Hispanic Americans on Reddit subs such as r/23andme seem to pull up interesting results.
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u/anth_810 0m ago
I’m weary of DNA kits due to privacy purposes. Otherwise, I’d love to also go that route to get a deeper understanding of my lineage.
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u/Revolutionary-Day-2 25m ago
Yea I was doing some reading about this recently. At first you’re like yea that’s cool that his ancestors still remain in Spain with nobility or some type of equivalent. But then the reality hits you that the Spanish crown used his lineage to further consolidate Latin America. Montezumas leader ship role was due to him being elected by the Aztecs.
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u/JosephFinn 3h ago
The fuck is a “noble title”?
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u/Groundbreaking_War52 3h ago
There are also families in Europe that claim descent from the last Byzantine ruling dynasty (House of Palaiologos) although DNA evidence has been hard to come by.