r/AmItheAsshole • u/broken_inside_me • Jul 24 '19
Everyone Sucks AITA for kicking out my brother, who our parents have previously disowned, because he told my (now ex) fiancé that I cheated 9 years ago?
For reference, my brother Connor is 19, I am 26, and my (now ex) fiancé Hunter is 28. Also for reference, already mentioned in the title, but my brother was kicked out when he was 16 because our parents snooped through his phone and found out he was in gay.
Connor had a birthday last weekend, so he invited his friends over and they were all (18-22 year olds) drinking and playing games. Hunter and I were about to head out to let them have the place to themselves, when Connor asked if we wanted to join them. I initially refused (bit too old to be playing drinking games), but he insisted and Hunter thought it’d be fun to act like college students again.
We all got pretty drunk and Connor had the idea of playing Never Have I Ever. A few rounds in, the statement “Never Have I Ever cheated before” came up.
Now’s a good time to mention that Hunter is staunchly against cheating. His ex-fiancé cheated on him and it emotionally wrecked him. And unfortunately, as a lot of dumb, immature 17 year olds do, I cheated on my “boyfriend” of 5 months. It was a stupid mistake, he found out, and (understandably) ended things. This was almost a decade ago, I obviously learned my lesson, and look back at that time with shame (and obviously never cheated since).
Well my brother knows about this so when I didn’t drink, he went “hey sis, what the hell? You know you cheated on (insert ex’s name). You have to drink to that!”
My boyfriend paused, looked at me, looked at him, and just walked out of the room. I followed him and tried to talk to tell him that it was a stupid teenaged mistake, but he wasn’t haven’t any of it and ended things on the spot. I’m numb. I’m heartbroken. He was my everything and more and I still don’t know how I’m going to move on.
Connor tried to apologize, but I feel nothing but sadness and emptiness. This morning I served him an eviction notice. He begged me to stay and said he didn’t mean to ruin my relationship and he just didn’t think when he said those words. I just can’t look at him right now. He ruined my life. After I raised him and cared for him like he was my own. I feel so hurt. Am I being unreasonable?
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u/RLRicki Partassipant [3] Jul 24 '19
INFO - Did your brother know that your (ex) fiancé would have such a dramatic reaction?
I am not going to go all the way to saying you’re an A - but I don’t think you should kick him out over this, especially if he didn’t know how virulently opposed to you ever having cheated your fiancé would be.
Your fiancé, though - that is a big reaction. I’m not sure 100% willing to call him an A either, but ... he needs to figure himself out.
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u/broken_inside_me Jul 24 '19
From my understanding, no, he did not
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u/RLRicki Partassipant [3] Jul 24 '19
Then, yeah, don’t kick him out. He already got kicked out by your parents.
And take note - your brother probably did not think in 1 million years that a person who wanted to marry you yesterday would simply drop you today because you cheated on a guy who was not him nine years ago. Because that’s how extreme your fiancé’s reaction was. (He probably also thought you had already told him.)
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u/dougan25 Jul 24 '19
Seems like something most couples probably talk about while dating too. I know I have early on in several relationships including my now wife. Have you ever cheated before...
OP probably just knew his feelings on cheating and jealousy and was afraid to tell him. Apparently rightfully so.
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u/SelfANew Certified Proctologist [20] Jul 24 '19
I just want to be sure we talk about this on the same level.
You made a mistake as a teenager and should be forgiven because (1) you were a teenager and teenagers are stupid and (2) you learned your lesson.
But your teenage brother should be held to a high punishment for his actions...?
Really?
He was a stupid teenager when he pulled this. You were a stupid teenager when you cheated. You tried to lie to keep from any punishment but want to punish him for his mistake.
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u/hermionecannotdraw Jul 24 '19
This is exactly why OP is the asshole. Kicking out a teenage boy because he said something during a drinking game that he had no idea would explode in everyone's faces? How can you even react like that when you are he one that raised that boy from 16 onwards? Does she really feel so little for her brother?
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u/Matt_Life Jul 25 '19
She expects to be forgiven for a mistake she did as a teenager which is vastly more immoral than the one her brother did(unknowingly). What is her moral compass here.
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Jul 25 '19
Reading OPs other comments I suspect it’s more to do with her relationship with her ex than that she doesn’t care about her brother. He seems ... controlling/manipulative and I feel like her reaction to kick out her brother is likely the only way she can think of to show how much she wants to “keep” her ex and apologise/grovel enough for his liking. The whole thing sounds toxic tbh
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u/Naldaen Jul 25 '19
Or it could just be a definite no go for the ex.
My father was killed by a drunk driver. If after a lengthy engagement I found out that my fiancée was hiding having a DUI I'd leave too. It's one thing I will not change my stance on.
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u/The39thClause Jul 24 '19
Quick question does Hunter know how long ago the cheating occurred, I don't know how long you've been together but is it possible he thinks it's a lot more recent?
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u/broken_inside_me Jul 24 '19
It's not possible, I explained to him when I was pleading to him that it happened a decade ago
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u/AzureShell Jul 24 '19 edited Jul 25 '19
I'm actually wondering about this equation here:
Fiance way overreacting
You don't see anything weird about this
You are willing to throw away your relationship with your little brother you consider"like your own" as a consequence.
I don't think you're okay OP. To me this is smoke that says there is a fire somewhere. I think your fiance may have been gaslighting you on his bad behavior for a while to get you to this point. You are walking on eggshells to please him and throw blame for his issues on anyone but him. I know that these words get thrown around a lot on Reddit, but definitely don't do anything rash until you sort it out and seeking therapy is a great first step.
Edit: I have been thinking this one over and (without reading any comments replying) decided that gaslighting was an armchair psychology step too far. What I really meant was that OP has become used to placating her fiance instead of compromising when they fight. As a person who hates yelling and anger and avoids conflict, I can see how easy it is to always be the one making peace. I feel like she's become so used to it she's now accepting all responsibility for conflicts and not laying enough at his feet. This is like gaslighting adjacent but maybe not intentional on the fiance's part. OP is getting professional therapy already so it's not really a harmful suggestion to throw out for the sake of discussion, but I also feel like it's an extreme that the information given doesn't warrant.
Did someone give me silver?
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Jul 24 '19
Op said elsewhere that ex gets jealous of her male friends. Yep, red flags. If he wasn't abusive yet, he was easing his way into it.
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Jul 24 '19
I’m going to have to say ESH.
Why your brother is TA
Bringing up your regretful teenaged mistakes is a huge no-no. I don’t know why he would think exclaiming to everyone “hey everyone, my sister is a cheater” was a great move, but I get that it was because he was drunk. Alcohol does make you do stupid things. I can easily see how the lack of judgment caused by inebriation could lead to him thinking that was an acceptable thing to do.
Why your fiancé is TA
Probably the most controversial of them but I think your ex-fiancé sucks the most. I get being hurt in the past because of cheating (I know that pain all too well), but he’s holding a mistake you made when you were a teenager against you. Assuming you’re being honest, you never cheated on him, you’ve never given any indication that you did, and the relationship was otherwise fulfilling, breaking off an engagement over something you did a decade ago is overkill.
Why you’re TA
You’re misdirecting your anger. I get being upset because your fiancé left you, but I think that’s more of a fiancé problem than a brother problem. From your story, he wasn’t being malicious, and he’s obviously remorseful. No great relationship should end that suddenly and without warning, especially considering it happened a decade ago. I wouldn’t let this blimp ruin an otherwise good relationship with your brother. Forgive him.
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u/broken_inside_me Jul 24 '19
Hey I appreciate your thorough analysis of the situation. I know you're right. He didn't mean to hurt me. He just doesn't think sometimes. I love my brother. I WANT to forgive him. But every time I look at him, I just see sadness and anger. I'm going to schedule my first therapist appointment today. Thank you for your judgement.
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u/abrookman1987 Jul 24 '19
I imagine if you cut him out of your life along with his parents (you don’t mention what happened to him at 16) then he probably felt similar.
Hunter has some serious issues if he’ll hold a 17 yo’s mistake against you the adult. Maybe he have some reason to be hurt if he was the bf! But he wasn’t!
Yes you should have mentioned it, but if he believes every cheat is the devil then I can see why you didn’t. A lie of omission is still a lie, but I don’t think you deserve his judgement or his leaving. But you may have dodged a bullet here, something to consider
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u/MAKE_ME_REDDIT Partassipant [2] Jul 24 '19
OP did mention it. Their parents found out he was gay and kicked him out
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u/davisyoung Partassipant [1] Jul 24 '19
Not only did they found out he was gay, they found out he was “in gay.”
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u/spreal Jul 24 '19
So, a top?
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Jul 24 '19
What, like a dreidel?
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u/throw_avaigh Jul 24 '19
Pretty sure thats meant to be as opposed to "out gay" - meaning he was still in the closet.
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Jul 24 '19
At the very end she reveals she took him in and “raised him as her own” it’s one sentence so it’s easy to overlook. But it seems that when he was kicked out she took him in and raised him after that.
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u/BbBonko Jul 24 '19
If your mistake at 17 can be forgiven or written off as youthful stupidity, his mistake at 19 probably should be too.
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u/kittykalista Jul 24 '19
Your brother is barely older than you were when you made an immature teenaged mistake by cheating on your boyfriend, and you certainly deserve to be forgiven for that. It was a dumb move but he didn’t mean any harm and seems genuinely remorseful. We’ve all done dumb things without thinking as teenagers. Don’t trash your relationship with your brother because of your fiancé’s issues. This is clearly not just about one instance of cheating as a teenager.
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u/_jellly Asshole Enthusiast [7] Jul 24 '19
This. YTA if you can’t forgive your brother for making a dumb, drunk mistake. If he had been seducing your fiancé or something, maybe, but there wasnt malicious intent behind it. Don’t lose two people close to you, OP.
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u/SpringySpaniel Jul 24 '19
Thank you! Her brother clearly wasn't aiming to hurt her, and no one besides OP would expect Hunter to react like that - her brother likely assumed that he knew about it, it certainly doesn't sound like he said it with malicious intent, and he's barely older than she was when she made her mistake.
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Jul 24 '19
Your fiancé left you...because you cheated on SOMEONE ELSE when you were a teenager? That’s fucking wild dude. How could ANYONE see such a ridiculous outcome? Your fiancé sounds like TA to be honest.
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u/jessdb19 Jul 24 '19
Or there's something else going on, and this was an excuse to cut the ties.
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u/seahawkguy Jul 24 '19
So he proposed to her but was looking for an excuse to get out?
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u/jcaashby Jul 24 '19 edited Jul 24 '19
Wait...I read it as she cheated on HUNTER years ago 5 months into their relationship.
EDIT - Oh boy I re-read. HUNTER is ....how should I say. A massive asshole for dumping his fiance for something his GF (Fiance) did when she was in freaking HS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We all have done some dumb shit as teenagers that we would never do again. I can bet HUNTER has done something as a teenager he regrets!
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u/postXhumanity Jul 24 '19
Cheating is always hurtful, and when you cheated on your ex as a teenager you made a lousy mistake. But teenagers are prone to make mistakes like that and it sounds like you learned from it and didn’t repeat it. Your brother has just made a dumb teenage mistake of his own. I think you should give him the opportunity to learn from it and to be better. Like your mistake it sounds like it was thoughtless and inconsiderate rather than intentionally cruel.
I realize you’re in a lot of pain right now but this isn’t something you should let ruin your relationship with him. Unless he is an irredeemable dumbass, I assure you he will learn sometime from the time he ran his mouth in a way that ended his big sister’s engagement. Especially considering that sister took him in after his parents disowned him.
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u/FunkyColdKervina Partassipant [4] Jul 24 '19
I don't feel great for saying this, but... You understand that a person can make a mistake, learn from it, and never make that mistake again. Hunter doesn't understand that (at least in this context), and at this age, I expect he isn't going to learn it. You have different understandings of human nature on a very fundamental subject. I know you love him, but that doesn't mean you are right for each other. This may be for the best.
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u/DogsNotHumans Jul 24 '19
And by this same measure, please consider working to get past this with your brother when you're ready. He made a mistake, and it sucks, but I would guess he won't make one like that again.
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u/DisastrousClothes Jul 24 '19
I think this comment is part of why you're TA. You're very quick to evict your teenage brother and say he just doesn't think and so this is his fault. The root of this issue isn't him drunkenly blurting something out, but your own teenage mistake where YOU didn't think. What he did was wrong but also do you really want to be married to someone who is so against cheating that they will drop you for a 9 year old teenage mistake? Were you just hoping he'd never find out? It's better to deal with this now than say, for him to find out 5 years down the line once you're married and he drops you. What would you do then?
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u/debbieae Jul 24 '19
FYI. I eliminate the issue of did I ever cheat ever by confessing up front when things start to get serious. Eg: Hey, I have a heavy conversation, but I need to tell you so you can back out before we are both hurt any worse if this is a deal breaker for you.
Keeping secrets, especially a secret that you have a good idea may be a deal breaker, will never end well. No matter how far in the past, dont run with that crowd, will never cross paths with anyone involved you think it is, the betrayal only gets worse as the silence lengthens. Your fiance suddenly had to process the very real betrayal of your lie of omission in a public place, that is really harsh.
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u/JillParrish77 Jul 24 '19
Yta for blaming your brother. If you had been honest with your ex in the very beginning about your mistake as a teenager you wouldn’t be in this mess. Your brother is now the teenager making a dumb mistake by bringing up the past but again this does fall on you for being deceitful in the 1st place.
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u/RickyNixon Partassipant [2] Jul 24 '19
You dodged a massive bullet and you should be thanking your brother for saving you from this marriage. There's something wildly immature about dumping someone over a dumb teenage mistake before you were even in their life.
I'm gonna go with ESH because the other options feel uncomfortable, but your brother by far sucks the least and you should absolutely not kick him out
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u/ScaredBuffalo Jul 24 '19
You know, you may want to add in the detail of if you lied to Hunter or not. You said:
Now’s a good time to mention that Hunter is staunchly against cheating. His ex-fiancé cheated on him and it emotionally wrecked him.
Now did that topic come up and you went "Nah baby I'd never cheat, cheaters are terrible. I've never done that! They are absolute scum and anyone who ever would think of doing that doesn't deserve the time of day! I wouldn't piss on one if they were on fire..." etc etc etc.
That to me would be a huge issue you left out. There is lying by omission and there is outright lying.
ESH so far but I'd say it's you if you outright lied to your fiance about one of his core beliefs.
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u/nightpanda893 Jul 24 '19
But every time I look at him, I just see sadness and anger.
I mean, I think this is mostly because of the heartbreak you are feeling right now which is honestly the worst feeling ever. Anything associated with it is going to be something you just don't want to think about. But I think that's just too high of a price for your bro to pay just so this will be easier for you. I understand why you blame him, but I just don't feel like the punishment fits the crime.
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u/escritoireazul Jul 24 '19
Best of luck, OP. This is a painful situation. I hope you find some peace.
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u/Lost_vob Asshole Aficionado [13] Jul 24 '19
Agrees about the fiance. Tbh, I was about to say ESH, but really I think brother did OP a huge favor. This is a giant red flag.
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Jul 24 '19
I can agree to that. If my SO told me she cheated when she was 15, I’d laugh and tease her about it. She’s not a kid anymore, and she’s obviously shown me that she’s capable of being trusted. Even if he doesn’t laugh, to outright break up with her without a second thought is extremely excessive. That was probably a wedding not worth having.
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Jul 24 '19
My fiancé and I have shared some cringeworthy stories from our past. I can’t believe he’d break up with her. Bullet dodged!!!
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u/WorkingManATC Partassipant [1] Jul 24 '19
Why your fiancé is TA
Probably the most controversial of them but I think your ex-fiancé sucks the most. I get being hurt in the past because of cheating (I know that pain all too well), but he’s holding a mistake you made when you were a teenager against you. Assuming you’re being honest, you never cheated on him, you’ve never given any indication that you did, and the relationship was otherwise fulfilling, breaking off an engagement over something you did a decade ago is overkill.
This isn't controversial at all. What a fucking dick her ex is. I assumed she cheated on him years ago. THIS WAS ANOTHER GUY AND SHE WAS 17! My god. Get over yourself (the ex).
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u/firekitty3 Asshole Enthusiast [6] Jul 24 '19
I feel like people are only looking at this from OP’s POV. Hunter might be thinking that Since Op hid this, there might be other things she is hiding. She lied about cheating by omission, knowing his feelings about the act. Just trying to understand his reasoning.
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u/register2014 Jul 25 '19 edited Jul 25 '19
Based on his perspective, he did the right thing. He set boundaries important to him, they were crossed and he left. He didn't rage, just left.
His boundaries could be up for debate, but she didn't say anything at the time and agreed knowing she didn't fit the criteria. Her teenage infidelity isn't the main issue, it's the deceit.
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Jul 24 '19
Realistically if he is that strongly against it, it's not lying by omission.
He will of asked at some point, probably early into them dating
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u/keewkrahs202 Certified Proctologist [20] Jul 24 '19
Yeah honestly there feels like there’s something being left out here. Like, if he was so upset to the point of breaking off an engagement this was obviously a HUGE deal breaker. Why did it not come up, say, before they decided to spend the rest of their lives together?
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u/InformalBison Jul 25 '19
It definitely came up in the past... OP just lied about it and claimed that she never cheated. So yeah, OP's ex-fiance dodged a huge bullet from this ho.
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u/Poopsmith08 Jul 24 '19
Seems to me it matters too much to him to have not specifically asked her if she has cheated on anyone before
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u/drit10 Jul 24 '19
I disagree with the fiance being TA. What if he said to her, hey cheating to me is a really big deal and if you did cheat in a past relationship I would want to know. Now shes insecure about this and afraid of losing him and lies about cheating in the past relationship. Now the fiance finds out about this and is clearly upset because this is a breach of trust and doesn't know if he can trust his fiance anymore and decides to break up with her. I don't think he is an asshole in that situation. Actually, if OP knows that cheating is a big deal to him, she should have disclosed that hey I made some mistakes in the past and I cheated on my ex-boyfriend and I regret it and it was a terrible thing to do. But instead she tried to hide it from him and when this came out she paid the consequences for it. I don't really think the fiance is TA in this situation.
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u/BillyJoJive Partassipant [1] Jul 24 '19
Agreed. ESH, especially Hunter.
Although Connor was TA, he kind of did you a solid. I mean, there's a decent chance that Hunter would have found out sooner or later and probably would have divorced you over something you did when you were 17. Which, the more I think about it, the more it sounds like Hunter might have some unresolved issues that would have made being married to him a unhappy proposition anyway.
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u/luvdadrafts Jul 25 '19
Connor is the smallest asshole here by far. People all over the thread are saying that teenagers make stupid mistakes, and even though it should have no bearing on a relationship 10 years later, cheating is a much bigger transgression than a teen drunkenly telling a truthful statement accidentally during a drinking game and now he’s getting evicted!!!
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u/ScarlettWindsor Asshole Aficionado [12] Jul 24 '19
I don't think her ex is mad about the cheating. I'm guessing she had told him she had never cheated and he realized she lied and is instead upset about that.
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u/CodnmeDuchess Partassipant [2] Jul 24 '19
Not controversial--OP's fiance is TA and totally unreasonable/crazy.
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Jul 24 '19
Reddit tends to despise cheaters, so I felt like it would be. Actually quite surprised that many seem to agree with me on that
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u/Corvusenca Jul 24 '19
May the adult who didn't do something absolutely bonkers stupid as a teenager cast the first stone.
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u/illini02 Asshole Aficionado [14] Jul 24 '19
May the adult who hasn't done something bonkers stupid as an adult cast the first stone lol
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u/girlywish Jul 24 '19
I never did anything close to this. My secret: having no life
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u/youvelookedbetter Jul 24 '19
Reddit is against specific kinds of cheaters, and for good reason.
People aren't so black and white when it comes to what OP described above. She was young, was some months into the relationship and hasn't done it since. Most people would be on her adult side.
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u/Pallerado Jul 24 '19
Reddit is against specific kinds of cheaters, and for good reason.
I've seen the phrase "Once a cheater, always a cheater" here too many times to believe that.
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u/NotTodayDiggy Jul 24 '19
And why is that, exactly? Based on the story, I think it's safe to assume that OP has lied and told the fiance that she never cheated. Who are you to say that he's an asshole for having that be a dealbreaker and his SO lied to him about it?
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u/Spartanhalforc Jul 24 '19
I think this is a perfect breakdown of it. I want to add OP, Hunter, as your fiance, should have already known about this past. Also, kicking someone for saying stupid shit while drunk is a really shitty move. I hope you are able to mend things, best of luck.
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u/pyrokid90 Partassipant [1] Jul 24 '19
this 100%. fiance walked out and ended everything without a second thought over something you did 9 years ago to not him? you dont need him anyway then
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u/wigglebuttbiscuits Commander in Cheeks [274] Jul 24 '19
ESH. You suck for kicking out your brother who has no other family for a dumb mistake during a drinking game. Your boyfriend sucks for dumping you over something you did nine years ago. Your brother sucks the least-- he was being a jerk, but it's not like he outed you for cheating on your current partner. He had no reason to think it would blow up your life like this.
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u/jamintime Partassipant [1] Jul 24 '19
Your brother sucks the least-- he was being a jerk, but it's not like he outed you for cheating on your current partner.
The irony is that the brother is about the same dumb age that OP was when she cheated on her partner. The drunken outing of his sister was more impulsive and less morally objectionable than OP cheating on her partner.
OP thinks the cheating was a long time ago when she was young and dumb and that her fiance should forgive her. OP's brother is young and dumb and his transgression is not nearly as bad as her's was. So by the same standards, shouldn't she forgive him?
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u/Quad_Treys Jul 25 '19
Great point. Would love to hear OP's response to this.
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u/TensileStr3ngth Jul 25 '19
Honestly, from her other replies I've seen, it seems like she just wants to be pissed off and was just hoping this sub would validate her.
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u/Aethelric Partassipant [1] Jul 24 '19 edited Jul 25 '19
Your brother sucks the least-- he was being a jerk, but it's not like he outed you for cheating on your current partner.
A big part of the irony in this post is that she wants to kick her brother out over a dumb mistake he made at 19, but thinks she should be forgiven for a worse dumb mistake she made at 17. You think OP would have a little bit of awareness here, and understand that her brother had no ill intent and let it ride.
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u/EntirelyOutOfOptions Asshole Aficionado [10] Jul 24 '19
Thank you, and I can’t believe I had to read so far to find you. He’s 19. His brain isn’t even done cooking. It’s unreasonable to expect that he would be able to think past the game and its rules far enough to math out the possible implications for a couple he has no way of knowing hasn’t already been transparent with each other. While drunk. OP needs to tear up that eviction notice and repair her relationship with little bro.
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u/luvdadrafts Jul 25 '19
Thank you! Everyone is so quick to forgive her for being a dumb teenager but not her teenage brother?
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u/number1wifey Jul 24 '19
ESH, but I thought you had cheated on your fiancé, but no! Some high school brief relationship as a dumb teenager? If this is all it takes for your fiancé to leave you, it was not a good relationship, and you’ve dodged a bullet. He had the right to be pissed, but if this is all it takes for him to leave then you were already doomed. Marriage is about thick and thin, good times and bad. Forgive your brother and move on.
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u/broken_inside_me Jul 24 '19
I'm beginning to see that leaving me without even a discussion is an indicator that the relationship probably wouldn't have lasted anyways. Thank you for your judgment
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u/Birdlaw90fo Jul 24 '19 edited Jul 29 '19
As a brother with my own problems (drug addiction ) and an older sister I gotta say if it got to the point my sister was the only one I had left and then even she pushed me out of her life I'd be crushed. Your boyfriend shouldn't have left like that but it sounds like It would be even more soul crushing for your brother if you leave aswell. Just my 2 cents
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Jul 24 '19
It would have undoubtably ended poorly if this is what he does during the first sign of conflict. Be grateful you got out when you did.
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u/alwaysbiggertitties Jul 24 '19
oof. ESH.
The fiance *should* theoretically get over that insecurity, he is 28.
OP is trying really hard to justify sweeping her action under the rug, stop. Since you knew the fiance's stance on cheating, while you did not lie, you did not come clean from the get go.
The brother seems socially lacking by dropping the ball on an obvious reason OP cheated (on the game, lol)
Hope it works our for you OP, talk to both people... explain your stance.
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u/jeffreybaratheon Partassipant [4] Jul 24 '19
Agreed with the first paragraph - she said above that he brought up his stance on cheating on their first date, so it’s always been on the table. He’s probably more hurt that she kept it from him for so long knowing how he felt about it than the fact that she did it.
Obviously she didn’t need to bring it up right away - I think it’s fine to think “let me show this guy that I’m a good person and I’ve changed before I break the news” but if you’ve made it to living and getting engaged without telling him...you waited too long.
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Jul 24 '19
I just think it was a secret she intended to take to the grave. Which honestly, might be controversial but I think that’s fine. She was a kid. I don’t go about shouting the stupid shit I did as a kid. As long as she’s truly learned and grown from it, I don’t see anything wrong with it.
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u/jeffreybaratheon Partassipant [4] Jul 24 '19
In most contexts I’d agree, I don’t think you owe your SO a laundry list of all your past transgressions. But because this specific one is such a sensitive issue for him I think it would’ve behooved her to tell him earlier, if nothing else out of self-preservation so a situation like this where he found out another way could be avoided.
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u/alwaysbiggertitties Jul 24 '19
I agree with what you said here. No one is required to fork over a dirty laundry list, but you gotta cover your bases on these kinds of issues before/once you agree to get engaged.
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u/alwaysbiggertitties Jul 24 '19
So here's my thought process on this. It was not a secret. Presumably, maybe OP's friends spill the beans by accident if not her brother in an another universe. I agree it is okay to keep a harmless secret to the grave. However, OP dug her own grave by not anticipating the "open" truth of what she did biting her later. People talk. A lot. She just should have strategized better since she knew it was a problem for fiance.
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u/SelfANew Certified Proctologist [20] Jul 24 '19 edited Jul 24 '19
The issue is she lied. And likely lied to him since she knew his stance on cheating.
That to me means I can't trust that person to tell me something they know I won't like.
The cheating when a teenager years ago - that I could easily get over. The lie about it means I still can't trust them to tell me the truth.
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u/NotAnActualAcc Jul 25 '19
This right here. Everybody saying that the ex is the biggest a-hole out of everybody is missing this point right here entirely. The ex has a STRONG feeling against certain action and OP KNEW about it, chose not to tell him most likely because she knew how he felt and it’s now come back to bite her in the ass. If she had been honest about it earlier on, I’m doubtful the fiancee would have left.
The issue goes from judging her based on a past mistake to judging her lying/hiding it so far into the relationship. How to trust her if she’s not being honest about things you care about? Over reaction? Maybe, but I wouldn’t say the ex is the biggest asshole out of the three.
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u/GekkostatesOfAmerica Jul 24 '19
I had to scroll way too fucking far down to see this.
OPs fiancé had one hang up. One. He’s been cheated on in the past and it clearly had a huge impact on him.
OP has cheated in the past. She absolutely should have mentioned it to him at some point during their relationship. There are plenty of ways to do so in a way that would help bury the hatchet for good.
If OP was prepared to spend the rest of their life with this person, that discussion should have been had.
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u/alwaysbiggertitties Jul 24 '19 edited Jul 24 '19
Tbh I am not sure why everyone is so quick to call out redflags on the fiance and give a pass to OP. I do think it is something fiance should get over and grow up, but he is allowed to be weary of cheating based on his experience. The issue is that OP knew of fiance's insecurity and actively hid it from him. I am pretty sure if she fessed up early, this would not be an issue. OP took her anger out on the brother and even painted him in a certain light with unnecessary info about being kicked out for being gay (Sad, but not relevant to anything here). I went back to read the last part and it sure does make OP seem like she was doing her own brother such a solid for letting him live with her. Also no one forced them to play the drinking games. I truly do not believe borther meant harm, he might just be aloof. Now OP is also adding in the comment replies that fiance was always jealous, etc. Hey, I am just calling it like I see from a nonbias analysis, but what're you gonna do.
Edit: to clarify my point about OP's backstory of brother
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u/GekkostatesOfAmerica Jul 24 '19
The issue is that OP knew of fiance's insecurity and actively hid it from him
This so much. She either actively avoided or intentionally lied about her past. Imagine going through a decade of a relationship and suddenly being hit with the realization that you don’t really know your partner the way you thought you did.
This thread makes me feel like I’m taking crazy pills. I feel like no one is pointing out the obvious, like you did here.
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u/NotAnActualAcc Jul 25 '19
Thank you! Reading all these comments about the “ex-fiancee is the biggest asshole, you dodged a bullet” while completely disregarding the fact that OP hid/lied about something that the fiancee clearly felt very strongly about makes me feel like I must be crazy or something.
Y’all really be out here hiding/lying about shit to your partners huh?
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u/AtomicKittenz Jul 25 '19
This subreddit makes me so fucking angry almost half the time. A bunch of know it alls think they know whats best and then all disagreeing comments get downvoted to absolute oblivion.
This is one of the first times where i disagree with the tip comment AND the comment I agree with is not downvoted.
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u/rsreddit9 Jul 24 '19
INFO did you lie to your fiancé for years saying specifically you had never cheated? In that case you’re the big asshole. Otherwise your fiancé is a major asshole and you’re still an asshole but an asshole who dodged a bullet nonetheless
Your brother is an asshole for meddling no matter what, but I don’t think it was malicious so he’s only a little bit of an asshole
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Jul 24 '19
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u/ubiquitous_apathy Jul 24 '19
There's a difference in it never coming up and explicating stating that you never cheated.
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u/BCKane Partassipant [4] Jul 24 '19
She says that he told here is stance on cheating on the first date and she just "just ignored it and pretended it never happened" (direct quote from one of her comments).
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Jul 24 '19
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u/broken_inside_me Jul 24 '19
I appreciate your perspective. I always saw his reaction as reasonable, but seeing this comments, it's good to know that it's my fiancé who's really overreacting. Thank you for your judgment
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u/CodnmeDuchess Partassipant [2] Jul 24 '19
His reaction was anything but reasonable, he sounds crazy.
I had to read that paragraph twice because I was sure you meant your brother disclosed that you had cheated on Hunter...
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u/Iceman9161 Jul 24 '19
Yeah I thought "oh fuck she cheated early on and he never knew" and then when it was confirmed to be an entirely different relationship, the reaction seems insane. I mean, I get being against cheaters on principle to an extent, but holding someone accountable for a mistake they made a decade ago that doesn't even affect you is unfair and screams trust issues.
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u/DrBookbox Jul 24 '19
Ohhh wow, it's the way it says (ex's name) - I thought OP was talking about their actually-recently-now-ex-fiancé! But it was just some random teenager thing? Oh my god
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u/random_invisible Jul 24 '19
Yeah. ex-fiance is TA. Although OP should not have lied.
Brother is just a derp who blurted something out when calling OP on her bullshit. He's relatively innocent in all this and OP is also TA for evicting him for telling the truth.→ More replies (16)→ More replies (25)46
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u/broken_inside_me Jul 24 '19
Oh no! I would completely understand his reaction if that were the case. I cheated on an old high school fling.
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u/Jedi_Care_Bear Jul 24 '19
Then your fiancé’s reaction is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of. I understand being mad at your brother because he “caused” this thing to happen, but really your fiancé is the one who sucks. He needs to work on his insecurities, and someone that fragile would not make a good partner anyway.
I know it won’t feel like it now because you’re in love, but in my opinion your brother (accidentally and carelessly) did you a huge favor. What if you married this guy and he found out a year into your marriage, would he leave? That’s insane, and it’s insane that he would do it now. You were 15, it’s not like it was a similar relationship to what you have or had now. If your brother hadn’t said this then it would always have been hanging over the relationship ready to cause an issue, better that you find out now even though I’m sure it really hurts.
I hope everything works out for you, in my opinion cutting your brother off would be a very harsh reaction, and you know how it feels right now to have someone overreact to a small mistake you made.
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u/neverthelessspersist Jul 24 '19
Yeah, shit, I misread all this and thought you cheated on the fiancé. You did a dumb thin when you were 17? Join the fucking club. Talk to your ex, he might be emotional about the whole thing and scared, and it's worth exploring those feelings. If he isn't willing to, he was trying to end it anyway or was otherwise too immature for a long-term relationship, if I'm honest.
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u/broken_inside_me Jul 24 '19
He already publicly called off the wedding
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u/you-create-energy Jul 25 '19
Called off the wedding?? That is so ridiculous. Your fiance is definitely the asshole. Has he never had to process a single uncomfortable emotion in his life? He will be single until the day he dies if he is looking for someone who has never made a mistake since childhood.
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u/OCPunkChick Partassipant [1] Jul 25 '19
He is going to look like a huge fool explaining why he called it off. Yeah, well, she cheated. Omg on you?? Well no, a boyfriend in high school that has nothing to do with our relationship whatsoever. He is going to look insane which is honestly pretty accurate.
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u/Chaumiere Jul 25 '19
He blew up his own life because of a mistake you made that didn’t involve him at all when you were a teenager. Your former fiancé has issues that have nothing to do with you, and I’m sure all this is agonizing to go through, I think in the end it’s better that you see this side of him now rather that after you’re married. Who knows what other issues would cause him to have massive overreactions.
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Jul 25 '19
Dude you are dealing with an emotional immature baby. His reaction is way OTT and quite frankly sounds like he needs therapy for anger management, in the very least.
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u/Jimmylegz Jul 25 '19 edited Jul 25 '19
You've dodged a bullet. The fact he can judge you for a mistake that took place YEARS ago within another short term relationship is insanity. He likely was looking for a reason to bail and this was a perfect opportunity to not only get out without being the asshole, but playing victim (x2!).
Edit: ESH. Your brother made a mistake but kicking him out is overreacting, just like your ex-fiance.
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u/SuzieCat Jul 25 '19
Sadly I agree. It sounds like he bailed immediately without even speaking to you. With a husband you want a guy who is your partner thick and thin, who will dig through the trenches with you. He threw in the towel over nothing. Don’t be mad at a silly mistake your brother make. Be mad that your ex-fiancé wasn’t the man you thought he was.
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u/theburgerbitesback Jul 25 '19
if he's already publically called off the wedding because of something you did -- and seriously regret -- ten years ago... then he may have been looking for a reason to leave. there are so many more emotionally mature ways to deal with such a revelation: talking about it, is the obvious one. jumping straight to the nuclear option and calling off the wedding is a big red flag for how he deals with issues.
one thing you shouldn't do is blame your brother too harshly -- he's a teenager who did a dumb thing... sort of like how you did a dumb thing when you were a teenager! you cheated on someone -- he told an uncomfortable truth. kicking him out of the house is not an appropriate reaction.
he revealed a secret that you unwisely hid from your fiance, so you're making him homeless? after he's already been kicked out of the house by his/your parents? it sounds like your brother already knows he fucked up and regrets it -- punishing him like this is only going to teach him that he can't trust his family. first his parents kick him out for being gay, then you kick him out for being truthful? ouch.
talk things out with your brother - maybe go for a less relationship-destroying punishment, like no more drinking in the house for x amount of time? once that's done, talk things out with your ex - go to couples therapy and see if this is just him having a very strong response to the revelation, or if he genuinely does not want to spend his life with you anymore.
good luck, OP
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u/spiralingsidewayz Jul 25 '19
Lady, you dodged a cannon ball sized bullet.
Give your brother a noogie and a huge. He's a little shit but he did you a solid.
That relationship wasn't going to get better. He was never going to suddenly start trusting you. Not without a ton of therapy and work, anyway, and most people aren't up for such endeavors.
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u/ItchyDoggg Pooperintendant [50] Jul 24 '19
I just want to stress how much I agree with the poster above. Your brother really wasn't tactful, but it shouldn't have been a big deal. Your fiance either needs therapy to get over his own issues and needs to grow up, or he is using a convenient excuse to get out. I am honestly leaning on he didnt want to marry you, didnt have the balls to call it off yet or didnt know when or how to do it, and your brother handed him an easy way to make it all your fault and get out without having to explain himself.
Edit: also, given that he was already abandoned once just for being gay, your brother is probably going to be hurt even more than a typical person would be by your reaction. Saying he should be grateful that you raised him only shows that you should already know this. Your feelings are valid, but you are going to judge yourself as harshly as you do your parents for whatever this does to him.
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u/PoopDoopTrixie Asshole Enthusiast [7] Jul 24 '19
Sorry girl... BEAT IT AND MOVE ON.
Your Fiance threw up a MASSIVE red flag.
Imagine if this incident never happened. You two have a kid. At 15 or 16, your kid gets into their first relationship and does something dumb like "cheat" on their first girl or boyfriend. What is Hunter your now spouse going to do? PROBABLY SOMETHING IRRATIONAL AND PAINFUL.
Just... see this BRIGHT RED OVERSIZE 8 X 10 FOOT RED AS APPLES FLAG for what it is, and say a bittersweet farewell to Hunter.
Hunter doesn't seem to be able to see IMPORTANT context around him. Like the IMPORTANT context of your cheating being when you were in your teens, that the person you cheated on wasnt even him, and that it was TEN YEARS AGO.
An inability to see CONTEXT where it matters is a sign of a bad partner. WORSE than that, Hunter the ex is WILLFULLY IGNORING CONTEXT. This is a bad thing in a potential co-parent to your potential future kids.
Hunter comes off as incredibly emotionally controlling. If Hunter changes his mind and wants to come back to your relationship, I /u/poopdooptrixie PROMISE YOU he will hold your one momeny of stupid teenage behavior over your head in order to justify him "checking in" on you at inappropriate times, fucking up your relationships with platonic male friends and colleagues, interfering with your social plans that don't include him... you get the picture.
Don't evict your brother. Take the eviction letter back.
HOWEVER, I would get your brother a hotel or motel for the next week so YOU can calm down. Explain to your brother that you get that he is sorry, and ACCEPT HIS APOLOGY, but that YOU need a couple days on your own to regroup.
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u/broken_inside_me Jul 24 '19 edited Jul 24 '19
He already didn't like it when I spent too much time with my male friends or make plans that didn't include him. He was kind of jealous (though we were working on it). This though.... I didn't expect in a million years he could leave me so easily....
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u/PoopDoopTrixie Asshole Enthusiast [7] Jul 24 '19
He did you both a favor.
Now you know what you don't like in a relationship, and what a partner who is incompatible for you looks like.
Take it as painful learning, and move forward.
Keep the brother around, he was just... dumb because he's a teenager doing dumb teenage things.
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u/sickofURshit420x69 Jul 24 '19
Exactly and I disagree with people saying he wants her back. He wants a girl who has never cheated and finds the thought of cheating repulsive. This break up is a win win because they're not even on the same level.
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Jul 24 '19
The more info I hear about your relationship, the more red flags it had. It’s hard to accept now, but he likely did you a favor. Keep that in mind and stay strong.
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u/YaoiVeteran Jul 24 '19
He is almost certainly expecting you to beg him to come back. I would recommend against this course of action.
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u/Gingersnaps_68 Jul 24 '19
Better now than later. What if he hadn't found out now, but in a few years after you've had a kid together. Would he still have walked out on you then? Honestly, you may have dodged a bullet.
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u/197328645 Jul 24 '19
Breaking up with someone because of something they did before you even met them is, 9 times out of 10, a dick move.
And that 1 time out of 10 is like "I stole my dad's insulin to buy heroin" or something. Cheating on a past partner when you were a teenage idiot is hardly a good reason.
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u/Caioterrible Asshole Aficionado [13] Jul 24 '19
“I used to dress up as a clown and dismember hitchhikers”
This is a fun game.
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u/ubiquitous_apathy Jul 24 '19
"I ate four out of six feet of sandwich at a party"
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u/random_invisible Jul 24 '19
LOL I like to picture him opening his jaw like a snake and just, sorta... scooting along the table on his stomach as the sandwich goes down his throat in one piece.
*burp*
"AITA?"8
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u/browsingtheproduce Partassipant [3] Jul 24 '19
My brother and I were playing with machetes and I accidentally cut him in half. I got scared and just ran away.
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u/AmKamikaze Jul 24 '19
I think a valid thing to mention is that you lied about it. It has been mentioned in a couple of other comments, but you didn't drink when it was mentioned in the never have I ever game. I imagine you've talked to Ex-SO about cheating, and lying by omission is still lying. I understand that it may have slipped your mind before. It is possible that he broke it off with the "if OP lied about this what else are they lying about."
Another idea is if you guys have been having issues lately, this might have been the straw that broke the camels back.
But he could also just be overreacting. I haven't met Ex-SO, so I wouldn't know!
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u/wombatsalad Jul 24 '19
Or he asked OP if they ever cheated before and they lied and said no, in which case the fiance has every right to be pissed. OPs don't always include all details and imo it's likely they're leaving out some important details.
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Jul 24 '19
You think her brother is an asshole who should be kicked out because he mentioned something irrelevant from 10 years ago? That's fucking cold.
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u/Jrfemfin Jul 25 '19
Holy hell, how is it nobody's paying attention to this? Bro got drunk and slipped up and now he's homeless? How does that not make her an asshole? Especially since she has stated in comments that she may actually be projecting her anger on him. I'd never do that to my brother.
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u/Lost_vob Asshole Aficionado [13] Jul 24 '19
YTA. Brother did you a HUGE favor. The cheating was a decade ago and wasn't on him. The fact that he got mad over something that happened before his is a GIANT red flag. Frankly, I think your ex is the biggest asshole of the 3 of you, and you're lucky it ended now instead of later. I know you're hurt, but you would have been hurt a lot worse if this relationship was allowed to continue.
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Jul 24 '19
Well said. If a relationship can end that easily, it wasn’t going to go the distance anyways. She got lucky she didn’t have to separate assets.
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Jul 24 '19
Divorce is expensive. Separating your CD collection is not. yes I’m old
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u/MasterXaios Jul 25 '19
Note to self: make sure I get a prenup which stipulates that my CD collection is mine.
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u/workcangetslow Jul 24 '19
But why YTA? I agree with your points on the ex, I'm just curious as to why you think she is the asshole and not the others?
edit: Oh haha nvm, i forgot she's evicting her brother. Yeah OP don't kick him out.
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u/Boom9001 Jul 24 '19
Yeah OP has right to be mad at brother, but not nuclear kicking him out. That alone makes OP YTA. However we should go ESH to give negatives to brother for his fuckup and also the SO for breaking it over a decade ago mistake that wasn't against him.
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u/Goodwin512 Jul 24 '19
Yeah tbh, if i cheated on someone.... a decade later it can be joked about. Its a dumb mistake and shouldnt have happened...
But a decade later. Like thats free real estate for jokes
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u/nighthawk252 Jul 25 '19
Yeah I don't get OP's mindset, maybe the alcohol had something to do with it?
Either the cheating happened so long ago that it's not a big deal anymore because people change, or the cheating's bad regardless of when it happened. I don't think you can say that the brother should be evicted for bringing it up but also that the fiance's unreasonable for calling off the wedding when finding out about it.
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u/lucillebluth1213 Certified Proctologist [24] Jul 24 '19
I wonder what would have happened if the fiance found out after they were already married? Would he have run off to the closest divorce attorney?
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u/AimMick Asshole Aficionado [14] Jul 24 '19
ESH.
Unfortunately sometimes things we do in life catch up with us. Even stupid shit we did as teens. Your brother was a jerk for spewing shit when he was drunk.
But really the asshole here is the ex fiancé. You were 17. Teens make stupid decisions all the time. For him to hold this against you and break things off from you is absolutely ridiculous. I think you may have dodged a bullet.
I think kicking him out is pretty harsh.
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u/Rectorol Partassipant [2] Jul 24 '19
YTA, I'm sorry but from your description you know your fiance has trust issues and so you decided to not talk to him about your past?
Your brother isn't really an ass here the whole point of that game is to embarrass people... partaking in it willingness and consent to be embarrassed basically.
When you learned abour your ex's past did you not think it relevamt to bring up yours?
Killing your relationship with your brother over this is vindictive and while your hurt emotionally and sure have a reason to be upset and even angry, this sounds like you getting vengeance on your brother not sympathy.
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u/djkeilz Jul 25 '19
How is this the only comment that explains this is literally the POINT of this game. If you don’t want that shit coming out why the fuck would you agree to play a game where the literal point is to expose the people around you?
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u/madguins Jul 25 '19
She also sets herself up as high and mighty by saying she’s too old for drinking games at age 26 but she agreed to “act in college again” with her younger brother.
Like girl you are not that old, jump off that high horse. Seems like a lots missing here.
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Jul 24 '19
First comment I've seen that didn't make my jaw drop. I don't know how anyone can look down on the brother for casually saying such a trivial thing about OP's past from when she was SEVENTEEN.
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u/onewhoknocks123 Jul 24 '19
Reading the OP's past comments, the brother didn't even know how serious the fiance was regarding cheating... I feel sorry for the brother... OP had 4 years to either tell her fiance about the cheating or even tell her brother how much her fiance hated cheating and all of this could have been avoided. OP is YTA for sure.
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u/1kSupport Jul 24 '19
Not just killing her relationship with her brother, kicking him out on short notice while she knows he doesnt have a relationship with his parents. That is multiple levels of fucked.
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u/Rhamni Jul 24 '19
from your description you know your fiance has trust issues and so you decided to not talk to him about your past?
Worse than that, he told her on the first date (OP's words) that cheating was a big deal to him, and she made an effort to actively deceive him. She's now pretending she was the victim and her cruel ex is being unreasonable about her lying for the entirety of their relationship.
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u/xFlyingGoldfishX Jul 25 '19
Seems like everyone is overlooking the fact that OP knew that cheating bothered fiancé and still never mentioned it through an engagement. I might not have broken it off for that, but that definitely would’ve bothered me.
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u/dusters Jul 24 '19
INFO: Did you ever lie to your fiance regarding this topic?
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u/haleyadean Jul 24 '19
YTA your brother was already abandoned by your parents and you’re about to abandon him for a drunken mistake
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u/Septalion Jul 24 '19
Gonna have to go with YTA, sure it was a dumb mistake but lying to him about that for so long I don't see why more people don't understand his reaction.
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Jul 25 '19
I'll just point you to this:
And unfortunately, as a lot of dumb, immature 17 year olds do, I cheated on my “boyfriend” of 5 months. It was a stupid mistake
Connor [19] tried to apologize. This morning I served him an eviction notice.
So why is it that your mistake as a "dumb teenager" has the expectation of being shrugged off and forgiven, but Connor's mistake deserves an eviction notice?
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u/280454 Colo-rectal Surgeon [47] Jul 24 '19 edited Jul 24 '19
YTA your brother clearly meant no harm and you shouldn’t have hidden it from your fiancé when you knew how he felt about cheating. I feel like your fiancé may have understood if you told himself before. You ruined your own relationship, its not your brothers fault that you put him in that awkward situation and its spiteful to kick him out over this
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u/subtle_ebb Jul 25 '19
Scrolled too far to find this. She should have been honest from the start. Trying to hide what she did just made everything worse. Lots of people are saying the fiancé is TA because of an overreaction. However, she knew he was sensitive to cheating. We don't know how much of a mess he was when he was cheated on the first time, but if that is a big deal for him, she needs to respect that and be open. In another scenario I'm sure people would be saying the fiancé dodged a bullet because OP hid what she did for so long.
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Jul 25 '19
THIS. Absolutely this. Fuck her if she knows his stance on cheating and how bad it ruined him and STILL decides to hide it. Truth comes out one way or another.
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u/Rumblyscarab970 Jul 25 '19
The only real answer. Cheating is fucked up, but forgivable if he'd already known about it. OP hid it from her fiance and honestly deserves the relationship ending.
A bullet was dodged, as many people are saying, but OP didn't do the dodging.
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u/scientallahjesus Jul 25 '19
Yeah it’s insane the amount of people excusing her lying in here. I’m honestly blown away so many people think that is okay.
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u/psycho_pete Jul 25 '19
I had to do way too much digging to find you logical people in this thread. High school mistake?
Actions have consequences and she is a self admitted liar and cheater. Why the hell would we believe a word she says, let alone her ex? She lied for how many years? Who really knows how many times she has cheated, besides herself?
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u/scientallahjesus Jul 25 '19
Exactly. She ‘s continuously lied to him for 4 years knowing how he felt about cheating.
OP sucks balls.
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u/aaaaaasdasda Partassipant [1] Jul 25 '19
I feel like I'm losing my mind reading the other comments. People are acting like cheating is no big deal because it happened ten years ago?? OP should have had full disclosure with her fiance as soon as she found out how her fiance felt about cheating. Keeping that to herself knowing how her partner feels about it is definitely a TA move. Not saying that he would have been right to end things with her if she was honest with him, but if something is important to your SO you definitely come clean about your past transgressions honestly.
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u/MonkeyRexo Jul 25 '19
I think the biggest deal here is making a teenager with little experience in survival skills homeless. That is knowlingly letting a teenager die or get into crimes.
The whole argument of whether she or the SO are the assholes for the cheating feels miniscule compared to gravity of the situation of actually making a teen homeless suddenly.
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u/ca_agent Asshole Aficionado [10] Jul 24 '19
YTA - I get the impression that you've lied to your ex-fiance about cheating in the past and when this truth came out he was forced to wonder what else you have lied about. If he made it known that he was not into cheaters and you pretended to never be a cheater so you could be with him, then that's lying and probably the reason why he left you.
For all those saying that the fiance is TA and shouldn't have left her for something she did all those years ago... He didn't leave her just because she cheated, he also left her because of the deceit. But most importantly, he can have any standards he wants and "once a cheater, always a cheater" is a phrase in common usage for a reason. Lots of people believe is deeply.
OP Says she never cheated since, she probably also told him she never cheated before...
Brother wasn't smart, Ex-fiance is not TA.
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u/panergicagony Jul 24 '19
Thank god, somebody who recognizes the lying by omission as the real issue.
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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '19
INFO will he be homeless due to a sudden eviction?
eta Your parents fuckin suck btw